Political Discussions for "Adults"

**Frownland** · 08-17-2017, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Did you see weapons in the hands of every single person protesting the Robert E. Lee statue's takedown?

I saw one guy who had a wheel in his hands.

The Batlord · 08-17-2017, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Did you see weapons in the hands of every single person protesting the Robert E. Lee statue's takedown? I didn't see that to be the case, least in all the vids I've seen. We should respect the rights of people who want to protest (for whatever reason they want to protest) as long as its done peacefully. The problem is when people resort to violence, which is where they crossed the line.

Again, a little nuance goes a long way here. I've followed the story extensively and just pointing out inconsistencies.

So you have to have a weapon to be a white supremacist? That must be what you mean or else "Did you see weapons in the hands of every single person protesting" is a rather odd non sequitur when challenged on saying that not every protestor was a Nazi.

Anteater · 08-17-2017, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

So you have to have a weapon to be a white supremacist? That must be what you mean or else "Did you see weapons in the hands of every single person protesting" is a rather odd non sequitur when challenged on saying that not every protestor was a Nazi.

I'm saying its dumb to make assumptions about the motivations of thousands of different individuals who were there when only a minority of people on both sides were engaged in bad behavior. Anyone who wasn't armed was there to protest peacefully, no? The only ones engaging in politically-motivated violence were the armed Neo-Nazis and ANTIFA / BLM.

Chula Vista · 08-17-2017, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I can see why you feel that way given how you approach debate.

I joined a forum. Not a debate club. Maybe stop engaging me all the time if I'm not up to your adult standards.

I'm going to put my opinions out there and you will not change my mind so don't bother anymore. We disagree on a lot of stuff. So what. Stop trying, ok?

**Frownland** · 08-17-2017, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

I joined a forum. Not a debate club. Maybe stop engaging me all the time if I'm not up to your adult standards.

That's fine, but this is a discussion forum so maybe you came to the wrong place. Might I recommend Facebook? You can keep your thoughts all in one place and delete everything anyone else tries to post on your page.

Quote:

I'm going to put my opinions out there and you will not change my mind so don't bother anymore. We disagree on a lot of stuff. So what. Stop trying, ok?

I won't stop but the same ends can be accomplished if you practice what you're preaching here.

grindy · 08-17-2017, 04:52 PM

Seriously Chula, just start a journal. I promise I'll keep Frown away.

djchameleon · 08-17-2017, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Put up or shut up, Nat Turner.

Yelp - Best Gun Store in New York, NY

Nope, I already said I'm going melee style. More satisfaction out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I haven't even Breitbart try to discredit that it was a white supremacist rally. Keep breaking that ground ant.

lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

I'm saying its dumb to make assumptions about the motivations of thousands of different individuals who were there when only a minority of people on both sides were engaged in bad behavior. Anyone who wasn't armed was there to protest peacefully, no? The only ones engaging in politically-motivated violence were the armed Neo-Nazis and ANTIFA / BLM.

They knew what that of rally they were going to and they were ready to engage in violence being armed or not.

Chula Vista · 08-17-2017, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

That's fine, but this is a discussion forum so maybe you came to the wrong place. Might I recommend Facebook?

See, this is classic. You have great debates with folks that fit within your acceptable radius of ideology, where you all are just debating the subtleties of an issue.

I, on the other hand are an outlier in your mind. My views and ideologies are so far removed from yours that you constantly resort to sarcasm, condescension, and veiled insults in your retorts.

You've made it clear hundreds of times that you feel morally superior to me. Intellectually superior to me. You deal from nuanced internet and school research and I just resort to my gut. You are high brow so I must be low. I'm old and out of touch and you are the hipster.

So what's the point for me? The Facebook retort above is classic you. A veiled insult from a smug person with lots of textbook and internet learnings but very little, in comparison, real world experience.

And you might want to learn the difference between debate and discussion.

I'll patiently await your next "classic you" response. Better yet, don't bother. In your mind you've already won every debate, even before you enter it.

Quote:

Simply stated, the object of any true debate is to win; to achieve victory for your side and inflict defeat on the other. Debate is a zero-sum game: In order for you to win, your opponent has to lose. Debate has that in common with war. As a result, debate is deeply anti-intellectual.

That’s not to say that being a good debater doesn’t require a high degree of intelligence, knowledge, and skill. But so does being a good military commander. A good commander will probe her enemy’s weakest point and exploit it to the max. At the same time she will try to conceal and distract from her own weaknesses.

Likewise, a good debater, because the object of debate is victory by any means short of violence, will zero in on her opponent’s weakest argument, his most outrageous comment or slip of the tongue, and make it the centerpiece of a relentless attack in the hopes of hammering him to submission or making him look ridiculous in the eyes of any spectators. She will twist subtle argument into absurdity. Ad hominem, the straw man, and name-calling may be logical fallacies, but they’re all part of the debater’s arsenal, as are distraction and attributing false statements to an opponent. The goal is not truth-seeking, the goal is to win. At the same time, she will conceal the flaws in her own argument and make her position appear stronger than it really is. Anyone who doesn’t do such things is a bad debater.

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Discussion, not debate, is a pathway to intellectual growth. That’s because when we’re alone or talk only to those we agree with it’s hard to see where we’re right or wrong. In fact it’s very easy to delude ourselves into thinking we’re right all the time. So discussion doesn’t mean talking in an echo chamber. Rather, it’s essential to try to see ourselves as objectively as we can. Talking openly to those we disagree with is a good way to do that. But of course it’s hard.

Debate is easier because you never level criticism at your own argument. In a good discussion you have to, at least tacitly. Also, in an ideal discussion you tackle your strongest challenger’s best arguments; again the opposite of debate. You enter wanting to understand the other side, coming not with prepared criticisms and zingers but with honest questions.

Because our default mode tends to be defensive, a good discussion means having to put some energy into the attitude that “We may both be wrong.” You don’t exactly ignore your challenger’s weaknesses. You point them out as part of the learning process, but you also have to accept that her points may not be as weak, nor yours as strong, as you thought.

A good discussion reveals the weaknesses of your argument, to yourself and to the other discussant. To correct an error you first have to be made aware of it and second to admit it. But to make yourself vulnerable by such an admission requires trusting that your challenger won’t hammer you over the head with it. As discourse turns to debate, that kind of trust vanishes.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 08-17-2017, 05:50 PM

lol

**Frownland** · 08-17-2017, 05:53 PM

I insert humour into my conversations with everyone. Cry me a river, princess.

08-17-2017, 04:52 PM	#566 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	Seriously Chula, just start a journal. I promise I'll keep Frown away. __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*

08-17-2017, 05:53 PM	#570 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	I insert humour into my conversations with everyone. Cry me a river, princess. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

08-17-2017, 05:50 PM	#569 (permalink)
~~Cuthbert~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Black Country Posts: 8,827	lol