Political Discussions for "Adults"

OccultHawk · 08-10-2019, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarieMarie

Didn't know that. Ouch, and I had Darwin on such a pedestal

You can’t expect a person from the past to be completely enlightened by today’s standards. In Darwin’s time the idea that whites and blacks were intellectually equal was pretty much entirely off the table. In the 1830’s after Nat Turber’s rebellion most whites who opposed slavery simply didn’t want blacks around period. Most white people who didn’t own slaves considered simply killing all blacks a solution at least worthy of consideration. In fact, many northerners had even more calloused opinions than southerners because interaction was so rare.

So unless you thought Darwin was some kind of Buddha it’s not really relevant to what he achieved. It’s very unlikely that any white person reading this would have been so revolutionary if we had lived back then.

OccultHawk · 08-10-2019, 02:58 PM

Quote:

treating statistical correlations as causal ones

There’s also a problem of language where causation is so hard to establish scientists can also come across as absurd avoiding claiming a causal relationship. The surgeon general finally had to say ok Jesus **** smoking causes cancer!

grindy · 08-11-2019, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

To be fair Darwin himself wrote stuff about how blacks are inferior IIRC

Times change

Don't know about that, but Darwin was explicitly warning people of the dangers of Social Darwinism.

**Marie Monday** · 08-11-2019, 05:34 AM

I've always hoped that there were a few people in Darwin's time enlightened enough not to be racist, and that people like him might be among them. And Darwin's personal views on black people do not take away the fact that his theory of evolution in itself is scientific, and social darwinism is an unscientific misinterpretation of it

~~jwb~~ · 08-11-2019, 08:39 AM

That's why I added an IIRC, cause I'm hazy on the details

From what I remember he wrote a book called The Descent Of Man which had some racism in it

I obviously agree this doesn't discredit the theory of evolution

~~jwb~~ · 08-11-2019, 01:43 PM

It seems like it has less to do with the institution being corrupt in this case than it does that people will always appeal to that kind of authority when constructing an argument

The argument can be pro oppression or anti oppression, or it could have nothing to do with oppression.

E.g. both proponents of slavery and abolitionists appealed to the authority of scripture to argue their point.

**Marie Monday** · 08-11-2019, 02:05 PM

One of the ideas of science, however, is that you find out if you got it wrong by testing. But you guys are totally right that in reality no institution is entirely neutral, and that people will often appeal to science to defend their arguments, and then often do so erroneously (like with social darwinism)

OccultHawk · 08-11-2019, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

it's easy to say this in retrospect, and you're totally right

that's not saying much in itself, part of science is getting it wrong

the challenging point is that even the institutions we consider to be neutral are entangled with power and are in fact even more nefarious because of this feigned objectivity

Are we objective to the possibility that the races are not equal?

OccultHawk · 08-11-2019, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mindfulness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTO-BsdRO1w

She says a lot of good stuff but I don’t like the idea of injecting the left with a fresh dose of woo.

~~jwb~~ · 08-11-2019, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Are we objective to the possibility that the races are not equal?

I think phrasing it as "the races being unequal" reminds people of things like eugenics and other forms of scientific racism. And it gives undue validity to the concept of race as a straight forward and self evident biological construct, which it's not. It's largely superficial.

Are there statistical differences between groups with regard to things like IQ? Probably. This is likely to be true whether you compare black Americans to white Americans or french Americans to Russian Americans. I wouldn't be surprised if you found some sort of statistical disparity just comparing right handed individuals vs left handed ones. In a way it seems less likely for different groups to match up completely in every domain than for there to be some sort of statistical disparity.

I think the implications of this are less profound than a lot of "race realists" tend to presume.

08-11-2019, 08:39 AM	#2685 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	That's why I added an IIRC, cause I'm hazy on the details From what I remember he wrote a book called The Descent Of Man which had some racism in it I obviously agree this doesn't discredit the theory of evolution

08-11-2019, 01:43 PM	#2686 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	It seems like it has less to do with the institution being corrupt in this case than it does that people will always appeal to that kind of authority when constructing an argument The argument can be pro oppression or anti oppression, or it could have nothing to do with oppression. E.g. both proponents of slavery and abolitionists appealed to the authority of scripture to argue their point.