Political Discussions for "Adults"

Anteater · 08-02-2019, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I’m cool with that.

Has it ever existed in your opinion?

No it hasn't. Catalonia came close to something like "true" communism, but they basically sold out.

By that same token though, I don't think "real" capitalism is in place either. In the U.S. you have corporatism in a lot of industries and parts of Europe you have social democracy, but no matter where you go there's some kind of imbalance.

I personally do believe that human beings would be better off just letting AI and automation achieve their potential. Let people live their lives doing things that make them happy without needing to pursue profit or participate in any form of government.

Until now though, I just didn't think there was any path to a world with close to zero scarcity. But there are enough wild cards in the deck now that didn't exist before where I think it's more feasible to give things a more serious analysis.

~~jwb~~ · 08-02-2019, 08:54 AM

Some things are expensive and hard to do and only scary guys with guns coming to get us gives the proper incentive.

~~jwb~~ · 08-02-2019, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

No it hasn't. Catalonia came close to something like "true" communism, but they basically sold out.

By that same token though, I don't think "real" capitalism is in place either. In the U.S. you have corporatism in a lot of industries and parts of Europe you have social democracy, but no matter where you go there's some kind of imbalance.

I personally do believe that human beings would be better off just letting AI and automation achieve their potential. Let people live their lives doing things that make them happy without needing to pursue profit or participate in any form of government.

Until now though, I just didn't think there was any path to a world with close to zero scarcity. But there are enough wild cards in the deck now that didn't exist before where I think it's more feasible to give things a more serious analysis.

I hate how people are such purists about every ideology that once someone tries to actually make it happen it's suddenly not "real" cause reality doesn't match up to the utopian
Ideal you had in mind. It's as real as anything else. Maybe life just isn't ****ing perfect, precious.

Anteater · 08-02-2019, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

I hate how people are such purists about every ideology that once someone tries to actually make it happen it's suddenly not "real" cause reality doesn't match up to the utopian
Ideal you had in mind. It's as real as anything else. Maybe life just isn't ****ing perfect, precious.

Yeah, but whether you are painting a picture or building a society, everyone starts off with an "ideal" in mind. I mean hell, that's all religion is. Jesus and Mohammad are presented as "perfect beings" and it gets drilled into people from the time they're little that these figures are ideals to strive for, but ultimately you are inferior and can never match them no matter what you do.

It just boggles my mind a little bit that we can create filet mignon steak in a lab for a fraction of the cost of the cow but people want to talk about how we can dismantle today's economic systems and replace them with something else. If people really want to strive for actual change and a post-money society, get into tech, biotech, VR, AI and all that stuff. That's where the leverage is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Catalonia didn't sell out

You'd think after killing some 8,000+ people in two months for supposedly being "political dissidents" and then successfully becoming self sustaining that everyone would want to get along. But there were people at the top like Horacio Prieto who wanted to sell out to Spain's national government. So even if the Nationalists hadn't ultimately gone in, it wasn't like the people at large were really getting their say.

~~jwb~~ · 08-02-2019, 09:38 AM

Don't you think that if this singularity happens and true AGI emerges it will eventually out compete and replace us, rather than just perpetually making everything better for humans?

Anteater · 08-02-2019, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

Don't you think that if this singularity happens and true AGI emerges it will eventually out compete and replace us, rather than just perpetually making everything better for humans?

No, because machines can approximate human workflows but even true AI isn't "driven" to replace or compete.

Now, if you started to digitize human brains and then turning them into something similar to what was shown in the anime Psycho-Pass, then I think you might have a scenario closer to the whole Skynet / I Robot thing.

~~jwb~~ · 08-02-2019, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

No, because machines can approximate human workflows but even true AI isn't "driven" to replace or compete.

Now, if you started to digitize human brains and then turning them into something similar to what was shown in the anime Psycho-Pass, then I think you might have a scenario closer to the whole Skynet / I Robot thing.

true AGI = smarter and more capable than humans in every way. I'm not talking about the robots in the factories literally taking over

Anteater · 08-02-2019, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

true AGI = smarter and more capable than humans in every way. I'm not talking about the robots in the factories literally taking over

Would a true AGI actually have the flaws that would lead them to want to "compete" with another species though? Scarcity driven behavior and greed don't really seem like desirable things to have in something of that caliber.

OccultHawk · 08-02-2019, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

this ain't politics

this is science fiction

Someone recommended this book to me on here and I’ve mentioned it several times

They provide a theoretical guide to how we could use automation as a window of political opportunity to move past neo-liberalism and capitalism.

OccultHawk · 08-02-2019, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

all this automation yet wages declining relative to inflation

life expectancy declining for US white males declining

I hear you man

At least those guys put together a plan

08-02-2019, 08:54 AM	#2632 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Some things are expensive and hard to do and only scary guys with guns coming to get us gives the proper incentive.

08-02-2019, 09:38 AM	#2635 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Don't you think that if this singularity happens and true AGI emerges it will eventually out compete and replace us, rather than just perpetually making everything better for humans?