Political Discussions for "Adults"

The Batlord · 08-01-2019, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

Ironically I think it's Trump that is giving progressives the confidence this time around cause he worked a populist message the last time and it worked for him

And obviously Bernie basically laid out the blueprint for a progressive campaign in 2016 and the rest of the party is basically playing catch up at this point

Think about the fact that the public option was considered radical when Obama was prez and in fact he sacrificed it to get the ACA passed. Now the public option is apparently the centrist position.

The pendulum can swing back though if either a) the Dems nominate a progressive and lose the election or b) they win and then have a disastrous presidency like Trump is having. That's something to keep in mind as well: yes, he won. He can't get virtually anything actually done that isn't status quo Republican **** though.

I think the left has been awakened not simply because of Trump's political strategies but seeing just how far right the pendulum is capable of swinging, not just politically, but publicly. I think a lot of people who are left just didn't believe that the country was capable of electing someone who says the things that Trump says and tries to do and got kicked in the head when they realized the truth and no amount of worrying about electability is going to trick them into becoming centrists. It's not simply a question of political possibilities, it's a question of existential horror.

~~jwb~~ · 08-01-2019, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug McClasky

I think the left has been awakened not simply because of Trump's political strategies but seeing just how far right the pendulum is capable of swinging, not just politically, but publicly. I think a lot of people who are left just didn't believe that the country was capable of electing someone who says the things that Trump says and tries to do and got kicked in the head when they realized the truth and no amount of worrying about electability is going to trick them into becoming centrists. It's not simply a question of political possibilities, it's a question of existential horror.

For those in the know, it's all about strategy.

Running a progressive doesn't necessarily get Trump out of office better than running a Biden.

~~jwb~~ · 08-01-2019, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Biden does seem to appeal to the same demographic that would be the path to victory for Bernie

But I'm thinking the progressive wing will be so jaded they won't turn out for Biden

You don't think there are independents and moderates that wouldn't vote Bernie but would vote Biden?

~~jwb~~ · 08-01-2019, 08:14 PM

I agree it goes both ways .. I don't buy necessarily Biden is the most electable. But my point is if it were just fear of Trump thats not really a reason to go hard progressive. The reason is cause the timing seems right and people on the left are excited to try it out.

debaserr · 08-01-2019, 08:16 PM

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...atic/national/

Oh god. And you know our corporate overlords will continue to push for Biden until the end of time (because he will lose).

~~jwb~~ · 08-01-2019, 08:20 PM

Damn. Looks like Pocahontas took a hit.

The Batlord · 08-01-2019, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

For those in the know, it's all about strategy.

Running a progressive doesn't necessarily get Trump out of office better than running a Biden.

Yeah see this is what you're missing. It's not just about getting Trump out of office, it's about getting someone in who reflects actual morality worth reflecting with laws. I don't think you grasp this on a basic level.

Alright, let's bring this back to the discussion about labor theory. If you're an unskilled laborer, you're easily replaceable, right? That makes that laborer less valuable, right? From a capitalist standpoint this is indisputable. It's just basic ****.

Now, let's replace "worker" with "woman willing to have sex with a man". If a woman is willing to have sex because a man is just attractive then under your theory she is less valuable than a woman who is only willing to have sex when a man is willing to provide for her and her offspring and marry her and all that jazz.

Theoretically speaking this is sound logic but functionally speaking this means that woman who ask less for sex are treated less humanely.

Unless you're a right wing **** this is undesirable and equates human worth to its obtainability which has a real life consequence that is abhorrent.

How this relates to your original point about electing someone other than Trump is that getting Trump out of office is meaningless if what happens when Trump is out of office isn't morally desirable, in other words if politicians who espouse less morally desirable policies could be more electable than Trump.

~~jwb~~ · 08-01-2019, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug McClasky

Yeah see this is what you're missing. It's not just about getting Trump out of office, it's about getting someone in who reflects actual morality worth reflecting with laws. I don't think you grasp this on a basic level.

... That's sorta what I was saying. They saw the unconventional approach work for Trump and they feel emboldened to try it on the other side. Not cause it's more likely to win but cause it's more worthwhile if they do win.

Quote:

Alright, let's bring this back to the discussion about labor theory. If you're an unskilled laborer, you're easily replaceable, right? That makes that laborer less valuable, right? From a capitalist standpoint this is indisputable. It's just basic ****.

Now, let's replace "worker" with "woman willing to have sex with a man". If a woman is willing to have sex because a man is just attractive then under your theory she is less valuable than a woman who is only willing to have sex when a man is willing to provide for her and her offspring and marry her and all that jazz.

that's a pretty **** analogy, lol

Lemme know if you really need me to explain why

The Batlord · 08-01-2019, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb

... That's sorta what I was saying. They saw the unconventional approach work for Trump and they feel emboldened to try it on the other side. Not cause it's more likely to win but cause it's more worthwhile if they do win.

No, you as always are just talking about whether or not they could and not whether or not they should, cause you're a dead soul I guess and never seem to grasp moral arguments. The election of Trump was not simply an announcement of political possibility. It was an announcement of really awful ideas being more viable than many thought possible. The election of Trump was not an opportunity, it was terrifying. Do you not get this?

Quote:

that's a pretty **** analogy, lol

Lemme know if you really need me to explain why

why izzat?

The Batlord · 08-01-2019, 09:00 PM

Bitch I'm drunk. I'm talky as ****. You're gonna have to keep me from writing paragraphs I don't even remember ten minutes later.

08-01-2019, 08:16 PM	#2575 (permalink)
debaserr eat the masters Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,470	https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...atic/national/ Oh god. And you know our corporate overlords will continue to push for Biden until the end of time (because he will lose). __________________ Last.FM

08-01-2019, 08:14 PM	#2574 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	I agree it goes both ways .. I don't buy necessarily Biden is the most electable. But my point is if it were just fear of Trump thats not really a reason to go hard progressive. The reason is cause the timing seems right and people on the left are excited to try it out.

08-01-2019, 08:20 PM	#2576 (permalink)
~~jwb~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2019 Posts: 4,403	Damn. Looks like Pocahontas took a hit.