Islam in Europe

riseagainstrocks · 08-28-2017, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lilja

Actually, your statistic is more misleading. Mine just refers to the amount of people seeking asylum during a given year and how many got jobs after a certain period of time according to arbetsförmedlingen (that is Sweden's national work office). Yours groups all foregn workers together. That isn't the group I was referring to.

I do consider language. Hence, we give refugees free language lessons/free education. They can even go to University free if they wish (allthough free education is a given right for all). Is Swedish hard? Yes. But there are no requirements for them to pass the language classes and they can take the same class over and over again and still get the benifits.

What happens if they cannot speak the language and they need to go to the hospital/sign their kids up for school/driver's license etc... We provide translators.

In other words, we (Sweden) have created a society where you do no have to learn the language or anything about the culture to get money. Is this advantageous to someone who just wants the money? Of course!

Do we consider that people might be emotionally scarred from living in active warzones? Yes. I said already you can be declared too emotionally scarred to work. In Sweden we have "Sjukskriven" which means you can be declarred too emotionally sick/physically sick to work and just live off of welfare. It is an accepted part of our society although the amount has risen, as a whole, over the last few years.

Do I buck the amount of refugees that Sweden took in...because we took in the amount of refugees from places such as Syria that countries such as the US and England said no too? Yes. It was stupid. We are a much smaller county, population wise, than most. There were no long-term plans in place. And we are paying for it with a huge increase in people using welfare . That is why I think the benifits should be cut for new refugees. For a while, women who arrived with children were getting retroactive benifits for their children who were not even born in this country. Is that fair?

Do Swedes hire swedes over non-Swedes? Don't most (if not all) countries prefer natives for most jobs?

Perhaps the point about saying most were followers of Islam was a bit much.
I am just tired of this feeling that I am expected to welcome rather than newcomers should just be thankful.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Life and all that.

You're right in that the Economist graph combines all foreign-born workers, so I can't make an apples to apples comparison. I'll also happily grant that the on-the-ground realities are more visceral and real to you, in Sweden, than to me, in the US. With regard to what's fair, that's up to the individual. I would probably have a different emotional reaction to the issue if I noticed a sharp increase in my taxes or a decrease in the benefits, or access to the benefits, that my taxes pay for. But I think my logical reaction would stay the same: approach them as human beings first, allow time for adjustment, and take it from there.

The easiest way (relatively speaking) to end this crisis is to end the conflict in Syria. I won't pretend to know how to do this, but having an ethnic minority dominate politics isn't a great way to start, especially in a society with thousands of years of 'tribe as politics'.

Your exasperation is noted and I sympathize. We have to remind ourselves that the overwhelming majority of these people have nothing and fled from certain death. I'm simply stressing compassion, but I understand that it's easy to do so from across the pond.

riseagainstrocks · 08-28-2017, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

You can stand on a London bridge and not have to worry about the Westboro Baptist Church church van.

You can stroll through Yellowstone National Park without worrying about Salafi terrorism. You can take in the sights of the Great Wall without worrying about Hindu nationalists. You can tour Braavos without worrying about the Sons of the Harpy.... er, wait.

I still fail to understand the point advanced by some of the more anti-Islamic voices here. Ending the religion entirely? Ending it's practice in the West? Forced conversion? To what, Christianity? Atheism? Seriously, Neapolitan, OccultHawk, Man like Monkey - what's your "ask" here?

Too often I see people of your view act like the Islamic world ISN'T aware of how destructive this is. More devout Muslims are killed by acts of terror than any other group (and depending on how you run the numbers, very likely the combined total of all other groups is still dwarfed by "friendly fire") (source 1, source 2, providing statistics on likelihood).

Communism, Islam, Monarchism, Christianity, animal rights groups, etc etc. are all are capable of being warped into weapons. The constant need to scream "he's a Muslim" does not bring back the dead or punish the perpetrator. It puts a giant target on everyone else that shares a tangential connection by participating in a common religious system. It's like if I say, "hey, dogs shouldn't be used to test cosmetics" and you say, "I agree, but also we should kill all the scientists who test those cosmetics." We're broadly align on "dogs should not be treated cruelly" but how we get there is so opposed that we're barely on the same team.

I'm running low on analogies on how asinine it is to point to static words on a page as the font of all evil, but I'll keep trying. Terrorists = bad. Islam = neutral. Muslims = people. So, we have a) evil, b) depends on how you use it, and c) as varied as everyone else. Yep, I'm going to focus on terrorists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man like Monkey

If they wanted to do it they'd have done it, you said they don't have the opportunity but they have the opportunity every day, I mean the law didn't stop Omar Mateen did it? They're just a family of weirdos who make placards ffs.

If the WBC had 10,000-20,000 followers and operated in a mostly lawless country with no federal government, you can bet they'd engage in the same barbaric behavior as ISIS. They basically share the same position as the Ugandan government when it comes to homosexuality. Look how that works out when they're the law...

riseagainstrocks · 08-28-2017, 01:29 PM

Sorry for the multi-post, but wanted to put this here too. JWB has apparently been trying to get me to "debate" so I set-up an email for that: rardiscussion @ gmail . com

I know he lurks these boards - sent an email last week. If anyone else wants to move to a more private forum, feel free to use that as well. I check as often as I do MB, so every couple days or so.

Trollheart · 08-28-2017, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

If the WBC had 10,000-20,000 followers and operated in a mostly lawless country with no federal government, you can bet they'd engage in the same barbaric behavior as ISIS. They basically share the same position as the Ugandan government when it comes to homosexuality. Look how that works out when they're the law...

Thank you! That's basically what I'm saying. The only factors holding them back are the infrastructure, for want of another word, and the permission, again for want of another word. If Trump outlawed gays and did a "Purge"-style thing, you can bet those ****s would be killing all the gays they could. It's not that they don't want to, they just can't, in the present climate, country and under the present laws. That doesn't make them any less evil than ISIS. If ISIS were somehow prevented from killing infidels, do you think they'd want to any less? It's all about intent here.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 08-28-2017, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks

If the WBC had 10,000-20,000 followers and operated in a mostly lawless country with no federal government, you can bet they'd engage in the same barbaric behavior as ISIS.

And if my aunt had a cock she'd be my uncle.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 08-28-2017, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

That doesn't make them any less evil than ISIS.

Agreed. 50 odd picketers - as bad as ISIS.

djchameleon · 08-28-2017, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man like Monkey

Agreed. 50 odd picketers - as bad as ISIS.

Why do you think bad and evil mean the same thing?

He means evil in terms of morality.

You just pulled a Tammy Lahren, being intellectually dishonest.

Trollheart · 08-28-2017, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man like Monkey

Agreed. 50 odd picketers - as bad as ISIS.

I don't mean to be nasty, but is there something wrong with you? These people aren't picketing: they're protesting at fucking GRAVES and FUNERALS and THANKING GOD for killing gay soldiers, as they see it. "Thank God for IEDs"??? If that ain't evil, I don't know what is. They're so bad you have to have biker gangs protecting the families and forming both a guard of honour and a defence force. FUCK THOSE CUNTS TO FIERY HELL AND DAMNATION!

The Batlord · 08-28-2017, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man like Monkey

And if my aunt had a cock she'd be my uncle.

If your aunt had a cock then I'd be your uncle.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 08-28-2017, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

I don't mean to be nasty, but is there something wrong with you? These people aren't picketing: they're protesting at ****ing GRAVES and THANKING GOD for killing gay soldiers, as they see it. "Thank God for IEDs"??? If that ain't evil, I don't know what is.

Actually killing people?

08-28-2017, 01:29 PM	#1143 (permalink)
riseagainstrocks Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: DC Posts: 3,297	Sorry for the multi-post, but wanted to put this here too. JWB has apparently been trying to get me to "debate" so I set-up an email for that: rardiscussion @ gmail . com I know he lurks these boards - sent an email last week. If anyone else wants to move to a more private forum, feel free to use that as well. I check as often as I do MB, so every couple days or so. __________________ One note timeless, came out of nowhere...