I didn't used to believe they were too exact either until I started reading excerpt comparisons between religions then to check in the actual book to see all the excerpts were spot on

If some of us are hung up on the issue of whether this is/isn't racism, can we at least all agree that the comments from certain people here do show shocking

bigotry?

Surely that can't be denied/avoided/disguised/dodged?

Even if the two were not mutually exclusive (which in a lot of cases they are as we can clearly see weather people want to deny it or not)

That doesn't mean they aren't problems on which we should have a platform of discussion

Idk about platforms built on false assumptions.

You can find out what ever you want about these country's, saying ''what else do we know about them'' is a strawman argument when the sole topic of current discussion is Islam within those country's

the reality of the situation is that while there is certainly an issue within the muslim religion, holding every single follower of said religion accountable is nonsensical.

i think all belief systems are equally foolish, but to equate the CURRENT STATE of radical islam with "christian" terrorism is most definitely a false equivalency. the idea that because christian's did some bad **** back in the day other religions get free reign is absolutely sickening.

this is definitely an interesting read for those interested, a little bit more valid and honest in their research than the website Ziggy shared imo: Muslim Beliefs About Sharia | Pew Research Center

i think it is very clear that there are issues not simply with the muslim religion, but with the situation they are in within the more dangerous muslim countries.

Terrorism and mass undocumented immigration whether it be from the middle east or not have always been a problem when conducted, it depends on what sub-topic of the main conversation you want to discuss in order to assume anything regarding false assumptions if the main conversation has justifiable statistics to back it up (which it does imo)

I agree

The focus is still wrong.

It's not the religion. The religion is a convenient way to cloak political rhetoric in a way that is culturally ingrained in people from birth. Again, study the history of the Salafis. These are POLITICAL actors, seeking justification through the dominant religious ideology of their region to motivate followers to engage in POLITICAL acts to further TEMPORAL power. You can't get a 16 year old shepherd to strap on a bomb by saying "we're engaged in a territorial dispute with the warlords across the way, go kill a bunch of moms at the market". You tell him "Allah wills this, see this page of the Quran? That says kill the Sunni. Oh, and you'll get 72 virgin brides when you get to heaven".

True believers among the upper echelons of these groups are exceedingly rare. How do I know? Because I read books, written by experts, that a) interview these people b) rely on captured documents and manifestos and c) I can apply basic logic to the situation. The Quran says to kill or convert the infidel (if you skip over a bunch) just like the Bible says to beat your plowshares into swords (if you skip over a bunch). The commonality is MEN with POLITICAL AMBITION convincing the POOR and IGNORANT to die in their place.

It's truly shocking that this is such a hard concept for many in the West to understand.

right, i totally agree. but at the core of what you're saying there is still the element of religious devotes engaging in extremist behaviors because of their beliefs, whether or not there is someone pulling the strings above them or not.

again, i don't think it is simply an issue of religion, and clearly the idea that we have a "muslim" problem is bigoted and quite frankly incorrect, but i also believe it is important that people acknowledge that there is a subsection of the religion that engage in this behavior.

No one is saying Islam should get a free reign. :banghead:

Radical Islam is beyond evil. Let's just not act like it's some sort of new and unique thing. It's also far from the worst of what radical religous beliefs have resulted in throughout history.

The only difference with modern day radicalism is that they have shinier toys at their disposal.

We have a Wahhabism problem. I think everyone can get down with that.

then how come every single time, and i do mean every single time, someone brings up radical islam you feel the need to discuss the inquisition? it's just a faulty response imo. there is no eye for an eye, both are wrong, we all accept that.

More than most hopefully

Only when someone brings up radical Islam as a way to defend a prejudice against Muslims.

No, people think its worse because the rhetoric is worse in many ways, sure Christianity has bad parts too I don't think anyone is denying that but it didn't teach to forcibly convert or murder using the ''lost man'' terminology as justification.

I personally think religion in general is the biggest mental plague on the earth but I don't think Christianity is just as bad as Islam when followed to the core.

Jesus = prophet who helped the poor
Mohammed = warlord of took slaves and raped a 9 year old

The crusades is often used as a counter argument but the reason for that was for The Byzantines to retake control of Jerusalem after The Byzantines Emperor asked for European Christians to assist in war against the Turks.
Pope Urban the second was the orchestra-tor in 1095.

So that is a good example of how they're both bad and good , if just depends on what side you're on but if religion didn't exist then there wouldn't be one side to oppose the other resulting in thousands on deaths.

yeah, poking the bear definitely doesn't help the issue at hand.

And considering you seem to defend it with such loyalty, neither do you kemosabe.

I got my money on elph being more informed on the religion. I'm sure you have good intentions Ziggy but your posts read like you get your info from a lot of incredibly biased sources, as evidenced by your posting of the religion of peace website.

Then why defend it?

I don't get all my religious information from one website btw dude not to mention the second website linked that no one criticised had the same level of statitics

You language and perspectives read like what I've described. .

Scapegoating any kind of group is no bueno as far as I'm concerned.

According to who? Next you're going to tell me he looked like this:

http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com...res/jesus4.jpg

Instead of this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6iMuFZq-sb...ooked+like.jpg

I was (in the same comment) referring to what these religions teach

It seems a lot of you guys favour Islam over Christianity, if so, why?
Why not disprove and disregard all religions?

No religion should be a factor of critical thought

We're of a similar mind on this topic. I hadn't moved on the Phase II because so many people were still having trouble with Phase I,. separating Islam from terrorism as its necessary conclusion.

Phase II is addressing man's existential unease and susceptibility to paternalistic, hierarchical systems. The only fix I'm aware of is increased education, increased social stability, and increased opportunity. The irreligious make up a over a third of Europe and a quarter of the US - massive gains over the past half-century (wiki source, but internal citation is strong, I spot checked a dozen or so. We have the luxury of institutions that provide generational stability.

I could go on, as I clearly enjoy this topic, but I'll stop the mutual back-patting now :D

I've broken this exchange down to make it easier to follow.

This discussion is about Islam in Europe and whether it is a problem today. Not in the United States from 1980-2005. I presume the FBI didn't stop publishing statistics in 2005; why didn't you mention the numbers since then?

I asked for your source on some specific statistics. "All over the internet" is not a good citation.

As I understood it, this thread's focus was on the situation in Europe today. I fail to see how worldwide statistics from 1970 (those mentioned in point 3) are relevant.

Then what's the purpose of that paragraph?

There is no "big scary bugaboo." Given the increased security measures in America since 9/11, it's not surprising that very few people were killed by Islamic terrorists (and yes, I realize it says "Muslims," not "Islamic terrorists"). I'm not aware that such measures have been taken against lightning or toddlers. Additionally, I thought we were talking about Europe?

I'm not challenging rostasi's claims; in fact, I'm not even interested in debating. I just dislike what Lisna refers to as "slinging statistics," especially when they're cherry-picked. Actually, I thought his post was one of the best in this thread. Too bad he didn't write it or cite it. :laughing:

Indeed they are of their time so surely you agree there is no justification of someone who practices and believes every part (good and bad) of these religions right?

eg. you surely would agree that someone raping a 9 year old because it's considered justified by a book written thousands of years ago is wrong

How cool is it to see Pet Sounds grow up into a well reasoned and rational man right before our very eyes. Brings a lump to my throat.

Seriously, great debate points PS.

it's cause he's Canadian obv

Thank you.

I personally think the history is more significant of understanding than the religion

Tricky question.

First off, YES IT WAS WRONG!

Secondly, according to the person involved it was not rape and was completely acceptable.

And ya, I'm going to go there again. THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

Shot and killed in a ****ing church for cripes sake - all in the name of God.

-.-

Whatever dude...

We're not getting anywhere here and it seems it's going to stay that way.
I have no problem with you continuing to think you're a historical beacon of knowledge though, more power to you.

At least we agree on something

Whatever you say buddy, what ever you say.

Ya, closed minds are incredibly difficult to crack open. Spout off all you want but stay engaged when you get rightfully called out. Otherwise just take your ball and go home.

I stayed engaged for long enough, saw it wasn't going anywhere and decided to leave it and get on with my life before an unnecessary argument started.

If you want an argument so badly, look elsewhere.

I agree, just so you know I wasn't considering Islam the reason for absolutely every terror attack especially ones within the middle east we may disagree on whether it's the sole reason for all, some or none but at least we agree on something

Good on you.

You forgot the 'fify'

Very mature