Morality vs Fear of consequences
 

Say the rule of law disappeared tomorrow, and there was no way you could be charged for any crime, would you commit any? Is our reluctance (mostly) to engage in criminal behaviour more down to our inherent morality, the right and wrong we have learned from our parents and from society, or just the fear of being caught?

Note: I'm not talking about a zombie apocalypse or the aftermath of a nuclear strike or any situation where you would be expected to, even compelled to, suspend your moral compass in order to ensure survival. This has nothing to do with that. It's a theoretical tomorrow when the law disappears. What do you do? Do you take advantage of being able to commit any crime you want, or do you retain the moral codes you have (presumably) lived your life by?

Personally, would I murder anyone? No, absolutely not. Because I believe and have been brought up to believe it is wrong to take a life, plus I can see the consequences of that action: the possible children left behind, the loved ones, the ones who rely on the person I would murder. I find murder abhorrent in all cases, and while there may be some slight justification for same (Hitler, maybe Bin Laden etc) in general the idea of it is repugnant to me.

Would I rape someone? Again, not a chance. The wrongness of this act is ingrained in my psyche and I would never do such a thing.

Would I steal from someone? Not a person, no. Not like a burglary or a street hold up. Possibly from a bank. In fact, yes, if I knew I would never be punished for it, almost definitely. Banks have screwed me for all my adult life so I would not feel the same moral repugnance relieving them of millions that I would stealing a much smaller amount from a person, face to face. Does that make me a coward? Probably, but it proves I still have some moral compass I direct my actions by.

What do you guys think?

I would get ****ed up in public wherever I want and drunk drive when I feel like I'm fine. I think DUI laws would be the biggest former law broken in this scenario, granted that society is still functioning. There are a lot of things that I could do that don't conflict with my morals that I could get in trouble for.

I still feel bad about cheating on a biology test two years ago. I guess that puts me in category #1.

Vandalism and a fvckton of it.

Come to sf, frown. Public intox is practically an expectation here

there's so many people I'd love to kill

I could probably get down with some vigilante justice come to think of it.

Fucking if someone votes for rape I will personally slit your goddamn throat.

I'm tempted to do it just to piss you off.

But this response kind of ruins that, now doesn't it?

I'd have a grand old time doing various illegal but harmless [chaotic-good] things. Mostly just poking around where I shouldn't be. I've always wanted to snoop around in one of those ugly suburban mcmansions and find out what sort of sordid secrets they have. And probably steal their bourbon too. Maybe a tiny bit of arson? A small, perfectly reasonable amount of arson.

I can think of a few people who I would like to seriously injure. But they truly deserve it. (And the US justice system is utterly useless, the way they lock up nonviolent offenders for decades while allowing truly vile people go free)

It's interesting, because I've known a lot of absolutely awful people who pretend to be good, virtuous people, convincingly even (they manage to fool everyone), but it's just a performance. They're always smiling and virtue-signaling and then ****ing up everyone's lives left and right.
I suspect we all unconsciously harbor some dark, questionable urges though. Surely each person has something which would eventually rear its head if we lived in a lawless society. Especially since people habitually repress things so much.

I'd also steal like a mother****er. I'd take every cent from every rich person on the planet. And rape? ****, people I hate I'd rape them, torture them, kill them and their ****ing families. I hate people I hate.

I have a gun and a bunch of ammo. I have about a month's worth of food for three people. I have enough water to last the same amount of time. Also, tons of paper products. My two dogs weigh 150 pounds combined. If hell breaks loose I'm good until stability returns, I hope.

That being said, there's a few people I'd love to remove from the planet.

Just to clarify what is meant by "The Rule of Law"

My answer would be NO, because without a legal system and junk like that, it would only mean the world would be lawless, and it would be over run by vigil aunties trying to set things right on their own. These vigil aunties would take place of cops and whatnot. Say if you take too much time trying to get in your car. Well if these vigil aunties see you they will naturally think you are stealing a car, and whammo! like ninjas they'll drop out of the sky and they will be all over you like white one rice. Man, I don't think you thought this through.

I like your answer. I would tag a long with you. If you don't mind, of course. Then again...if you did mind, I could just kill you and do it all by myself.

I already break all the laws I disagree with. I'd like to believe nothing would change (for me), but I don't think it's possible to predict any of our actions when the burden of accountability is removed. It would take time to grow accustom to absolute freedom and for the most part people would remain good (because we generally are), but the general inconsideration and "world revolves around me" attitude that we all witness on the daily would inevitably lead to everyone being less "good".

I'd get a gun and squat someplace halfway decent but small that I wouldn't be too worried about armed gangs of bandits deciding to take over. I mean, why would I pay to live someplace when I could just not?

It's kind of a flawed question, since choices would still have consequences, even without a formal system of law. Try to rob someone, and you'd probably get your head blown off. Try to kill someone, and they'd try to kill you right back. A more interesting question would involve a scenario where there are literally no consequences. Otherwise, this thread is just gonna be "What would I do in a Mad Max world?" type thing. But then again, I love Mad Max, so here's my two cents on a lawless world:

In the end, the people who talk big about how many people they'd kill/rape/rob would not last long. In a world with guns, bombs, crossbows, knives, etc., life isn't survival of the fittest. It's survival of the person who isn't a pencil dick that needs to hurt others to feel good about themselves, and has no qualms about finding a way to be self sufficiant in a place hidden from the rest of the world.

Thus I suggest that in the event of society breaking down, we all pool our resources and set up a secret base somewhere. Batlord can bring the booze, Innerspaceboy can bring his servers that are surely filled with porn (as well as generators for electricity), Chula can bring his guns/knives and his dad humor, Exo can bring all his movies, Ki can write a survival guide making lists like "Top ten plants to eat to survive in the post apocalypse", and so on.

nb4 Ki actually writes this article

..Actually, nevermind, I think I'd just live in nice tree pod (or..a yurt? A tree yurt?) in Costa Rica with a family of sloths and take naps all day.

Please explain... are we immortal or something? I don't understand how you take consequences out of this equation. I mean even with immortality there is always a result of action. We would have to be reduced to the point of non sentience and even then there are consequences, we just wouldn't recognize them.

No duh. On a molecular level, of course every action has a reaction. But this thread is about a specific type of reaction or lack thereof on the social level; no consequences, as in the lack of immediate external punishment imparted by one's peers, which is what Trollheart was referring to. I was just pointing out that his scenario didn't reflect that, since in his scenario there would still be immediate external punishment. However, if you're convinced though that no scenario exists in which people can act without immediate punishment from the people around them, then the point is moot. Since in your mind there is no such scenario, and this thread was created to discuss a scenario that you don't believe exists, then it sounds like you have more of an issue with Trollheart's original prompt than with me. That being so, there is nothing left for us to talk about, and you can feel free to leave this thread to go ponder something else. For example, why New Jersey sucks so much.

You sassy muthafucka. :love:

I always keep a passive aggresive wall of text handy, just for you. :finger:

Someone already did.
You're one seriously ****ed up individual.
Nah, you're not getting it. I'm not talking about a lawless society where everyone can do what they want. Hmm. Okay, look at it this way. YOU and ONLY you can do what you want. Let's say, for the sake of stupidity, you buy a lamp at a car boot sale. Rub it and out pops a genie. "Yo!" says the genie (he's black of course, and listens to hip-hop) ;) "We got a special goin' this century, mothafukka! Yo can break ANY and ALL laws y'all want and you will NEVER and I mean NEVER have to pay in any way. Just yo, not yo friends, not yo family. Yo (ah **** this) You can do whatever you like. You wanna break the law, go ahead!"

So, like I said, there are no zombies, gangs, breakdown of society but you can break laws and commit crimes with no fear of consequences. Hell, maybe you're invisible, I don't know: it's theoretical so the actual circumstances that bring it about don't matter. What does matter is how you respond when the fear of being caught is removed. Do you go crazy, breaking all laws you can? Break a few? Break none?

I'd track down and kill all of the people who conspired to destroy my company and a bunch of people's lives in the process. Then I'd take down a couple of lawyers who've been dragging our lawsuit out for well over two years now. Then I'd kidnap and hold hostage the kids of the head of the finance department for Megacorp until they cut me a check for $25 million dollars to make up for my company's losses.

That felt good! Thanks Troll!

I'd do nothing that would directly negatively impact someone. I might rob a bank or something, but only if it didn't involve threatening anyone.

I'd seize the means of production

I can't say I wouldn't steal. I've been on the end of burglaries and theft so I know how that feels, I couldn't do it to an individual stranger but it's too tempting to rule out other forms of thieving.

Butt thieving?

Arse-on?
Grand LARSEny?

You two are actually adorable.


I still think we need to more finely separate Morality from internal consequences. Someone may be afraid to do something or not be able to live with something they've done because of their own intense emotional response to it? Does that necessarily make them moral... or just aversive? I'm a cynic, I don't think anyone is actually moral above their own emotional and ideological constructs which are still somehow selfish.

Of course, I'd much rather work with someone who happens to enjoy not randomly stabbing people than someone who does. So even if it's seflish, I still appreciate that person's mode of behavior better.