Science!

The Batlord · 04-11-2019, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

You “accept” it because it’s clear and obvious.

Well yeah but it's so clear and obvious because I don't have overriding concerns about preserving a nebulous concept of my humanity. I've cast it aside cause I never had it and all I'm left with is performing empty actions as a human construct that have little emotional value to me in any sense of an important human narrative. Accepting that I'm an automaton doesn't challenge my sense of worth cause I have an atrophied sense of worth. I'm simply "lucky" in that my natural view happens to be the most obviously logical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

So are skeptics when you cant justify your belief with evidence. Every other example on OHs list has evidence.

You're not being a skeptic when you cling to emotional needs to see yourself as having agency. It's a pretty simple idea: without proof of free will the default should be to assume it doesn't exist.

The Batlord · 04-11-2019, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

I will concede that our brains are predictably wired to make decisions.

You concede to half-logic.

**Frownland** · 04-11-2019, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

Accepting that I'm an automaton doesn't challenge my sense of worth cause I have an atrophied sense of worth

Since we're playing the straw man game, you only believe in that because you don't want to accept responsibility for your actions.

My issue with determinism isn't based on its implications, it's based on its unfalsifiability and reliance on fallacies.

DwnWthVwls · 04-11-2019, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

You're not being a skeptic when you cling to emotional needs to see yourself as having agency. It's a pretty simple idea: without proof of free will the default should be to assume it doesn't exist.

Whats the default position when someone claims it doesnt exist and hasnt met their burden of proof?

I havent made a claim about either and Im not convinced of either claim as they have both failed in demonstrating their validity.

The Batlord · 04-11-2019, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Since we're playing the straw man game, you only believe in that because you don't want to accept responsibility for your actions.

Nein. That merely influences my views. But again, I am lucky (I guess) in that my irrational prejudices leave me no option but to accept the most logical conclusion.

Quote:

My issue with determinism isn't based on its implications, it's based on its unfalsifiability and reliance on fallacies.

If that was true you wouldn't post irrelevant articles that have nothing to do with free will as a desperate attempt to inject uncertainty. You believe in free will in a way that rejects falsifiability in the same way as a Christian brings up the shroud of Turin as evidence of the existence of Jesus. It doesn't matter if I bring up how the shroud of Turin has been debunked because the mere introduction of uncertainty is something to cling to.

The Batlord · 04-11-2019, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Whats the default position when someone claims it doesnt exist and hasnt met their burden of proof?

I havent made a claim to either and Im not convinced of either claim as they have both failed in demonstrating their validity.

Yeah see I don't believe you. I think you throw up logic-y sounding **** to give you a cushion so that you can have your cake and eat it too. You get to be skeptical but also still entertain the idea that you have free will.

DwnWthVwls · 04-11-2019, 08:13 PM

Actually idc if i have free will because rather i do or dont has literally no effect on the way i can live my life. Its the same reason agnostic athiest is the most logical position unless you are taking a hard position against specific god claims.

**Frownland** · 04-11-2019, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharma & Greg

Nein. That merely influences my views. But again, I am lucky (I guess) in that my irrational prejudices leave me no option but to accept the most logical conclusion.

If that was true you wouldn't post irrelevant articles that have nothing to do with free will as a desperate attempt to inject uncertainty. You believe in free will in a way that rejects falsifiability in the same way as a Christian brings up the shroud of Turin as evidence of the existence of Jesus. It doesn't matter if I bring up how the shroud of Turin has been debunked because the mere introduction of uncertainty is something to cling to.

You don't think that the way that brains function plays a role in determining whether or not any decision making is involved with our actions?

DwnWthVwls · 04-11-2019, 08:18 PM

There is only one corrext answer to the question do humans have free will?

I dont know.

The Batlord · 04-11-2019, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Actually idc if i have free will because rather i do or dont has literally no effect on the way i can live my life. Its the same reason agnostic athiest is the most logical position unless you are taking a hard position against specific god claims.

Agnostic atheists are just atheists. They take an academic logical position but they still don't believe in god and live as if god doesn't exist the same as hardline atheists. It's basically logical aesthetics at that point that atheists on forums argue for the sake of brownie points. It's really not the same thing as a logical position on free will because free will is a concept that is central to human thought in a way that even god beliefs aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

You don't think that the way that brains function plays a role in determining whether or not any decision making is involved with our actions?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

There is only one corrext answer to the question do humans have free will?

I dont know.

I don't know is a half-measure. Whether or not we have free will impacts all of human existence, especially since humankind exists and thinks as if we do. For instance how much of the criminal justice system operates on the assumption of free will? All of it? Or at least as much of it as we can justify so that we can continue to give criminals the stink eye. What if humanity decided to set their emotions aside and accept that whatever might be falsifiable free will is easily the less likely assumption? An end to punishment as justice and an eye for an eye?

The assumption of free will has vast and unquantifiable implications for society and if there is a more logical default stance that probably actually reflects reality and we ignore it then we are ignoring what will probably actually have the most effective influence on society.

Of course none of this matters since we're probably just automatons with no worth but perhaps our existence as a species could be made less miserable if we came to a more reasonable and accurate assessment of the nature of consciousness.