What Did President Trump Do Now?

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 06:52 PM

What's separate religions and ideologies?

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

A set of beliefs doesn't follow by saying I'm a follower of Christ aka a Christian

Indeed most Americans are both Christians and entirely unchristlike

wut? Please answer the question cause I don't even know what your "answer" means. What separates a religion from an ideology? Keep in mind that your answer will necessarily require more than a snarky sentence or two.

DwnWthVwls · 02-01-2017, 07:21 PM

If I understand your argument correctly it sounds like you're using it, not Batlord... No "true christian" would act unchristlike.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

I'm not sure how to make it more plain

Have you heard of the Not a True Scotsman fallacy?

Edit: er No true Scotsman? Believe that's how it's usually said actually

Every atheist on the internet knows what that is. Please apply that in an argument. Cause I assure you, you are not being plain.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

How dooes one get that from a sentence where I declare they are both unchristlike AND Christians

Put another way The Bible says what you want it to say you get out of it what you came for

If you came for a justification for violence it's in there

If you came for ways to be more tolerant and peaceful it's in there too

I'm just gonna assume you're saying that there's bad **** in the Bible too (cause you sound like you're trying to debate on acid, please clean up your attempts at arguing) and I've been saying this whole time that I don't ****ing like any religions. I'm not arguing the position that Islam is terrible and Christianity is the bomb. I think that all religions are based on nonsense, and most if not all of them are very susceptible to violence. Islam is not immune from that just because so many Republicans are prejudiced *******s. Cultural conservatism's intolerance of non-Christian religions is a non-sequitur regarding Islam's ****tiness or non-****tiness.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 07:56 PM

Except that tennis shoes do not have dogma, either scriptural or cultural, that guides the actions of their wearers. I'm honestly not sure how to proceed from here because we're just talking about really basic ****. The shoes you wear do not affect how you see the world. The god you worship can and often does. No pair of Nikes has ever inspired or even been used as a spurious justification for an atrocity. Religion and Islam have. I think you've oversimplified your argument to the point that you don't even have one.

I'm not even arguing that Islam is this great evil compared to other ideologies and religions, I simply think it's dumb to dismiss it as irrelevant as so many people try to do. It's an incredibly powerful force in the lives of millions of people, many of whom use it as a pretext for violence, and whether the specific words of the Quran have caused this violence is in fact irrelevant, because these people have still derived meaning from the texts of Islam that has at the very least justified their actions in their own minds.

Whatever the specifics of the relationship between Islam and Islamic terrorists, to pretend that there is no problem in modern Islam in any way is retarded.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Except that tennis shoes do not have dogma, either scriptural or cultural, that guides the actions of their wearers. I'm honestly not sure how to proceed from here because we're just talking about really basic ****. The shoes you wear do not affect how you see the world. The god you worship can and often does. No pair of Nikes has ever inspired or even been used as a spurious justification for an atrocity. Religion and Islam have. I think you've oversimplified your argument to the point that you don't even have one.

I'm not even arguing that Islam is this great evil compared to other ideologies and religions, I simply think it's dumb to dismiss it as irrelevant as so many people try to do. It's an incredibly powerful force in the lives of millions of people, many of whom use it as a pretext for violence, and whether the specific words of the Quran have caused this violence is in fact irrelevant, because these people have still derived meaning from the texts of Islam that has at the very least justified their actions in their own minds.

Whatever the specifics of the relationship between Islam and Islamic terrorists, to pretend that there is no problem in modern Islam in any way is retarded.

Absolutely correct. It doesn't matter if the number of practicing Muslims who follow Wahhabism are 95% worldwide or .0001% - they still genuinely believe they're following Mohammad's ideals and doing what he would have wanted. Which in this case is conquest (Spain being a territory they wish to reclaim). They're a minority among minorities, but their actions are destructive enough that it creates a huge net effect in how people perceive Islam both culturally and idealogically everywhere else.

This isn't an issue of news coverage or not: the vast majority of the world's terrorism is being committed by people indoctrinated in Wahhabism or some variation of it. You also have the rapes and violence propagated by Syrian (or otherwise) "refugees" in Germany and Sweden. Those governments are not helping these people like they should, and it's adding fuel to the fire.

Religion in general is bullshit, but it seems silly to equivocate the craziest fringes of right-wing Christianity with Wahhabism...because even the Westboro Baptist nutjobs aren't crazy enough to go mow down hundreds of people at an Eagles of Death Metal concert in Paris of all places.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

You don't see how religion is last place on the list of things that decides someone's beliefs?

Take a Christian from NYC and a Christian from butt **** nowhere Texas 10:1 they have entirely different beliefs despite having the same religion

Because religion didn't give them those beliefs

But they don't have the same religion. Any more than a Sunni has the same religion as a Wahhabist. Obviously there are a million things that go into a person's identity, but to claim that religion isn't one of them, and by declaring it to be "last place" you are essentially saying that, is ignorant. I don't compare someone like Gayboy from Lebanon to a Wahhabist from Saudi Arabia, not just because of religion, but without Wahhabism I don't imagine that person would fly a plane into a building. Flying a plane into a building is a pretty ****ing illogical thing for someone, no matter their background, to do.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Japanese managed to turn soilders into human missles without religion

As an atheist I see religion as just another ideology, but one with an often extreme foundation of compliance with the given dogma, and imperial Japan most definitely had an extreme foundation of compliance to rival any religion. And given the belief in the Japanese emperor as divine I'd question whether it wasn't in some ways an actual religion, but honestly that's just conjecture.

You're grasping at straws, bro.

Quote:

Yes they do have the same religion they just interpret it differently

This is functionally the same thing as them having a different religion.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

Anteater

I'm pretty sure I've already said this but you're making a correlation, causation error

The middle east is the main exporter of terrorism because of its instability and place in the world. Islam happens to be the predominant religion of that region for historical reasons.

Isn't "everything" we observe around us culturally only there because of historical reasons? Nothing materialized out of thin air overnight.

Saudi Arabia has plenty of money and power, but their society is only as rigidly structured as it is because of how they interpret Islam. If they were a modern Christian nation nobody would be getting thrown off buildings. Period. The instability you mention is a byproduct of their particular ideology.