DwnWthVwls

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ - You misrepresented my argument and then argued against your misrepresentation.. Would you rather me call you retarded?

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I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...

DwnWthVwls

I was supposed too, but I couldn't resist using that epic Billy Madison quote.. I'm happy to continue insulting you though elph. It's always a pleasure

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I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...

Chula Vista

So much for being on ignore. I knew he couldn't resist.

You're resorting to grade school tactics now. It's almost getting embarrassing.

I've made a lot of valid points in this thread. Brought up real world personal expereince. And pointed out your preconception of painting most everyone on government assistance as somehow being losers. You've made the same types of broad brush statements over and over again - displaying your predudice, and cherry picking the **** out of the posts of people who are callng you out on your overall tone on the subject.

Yet I'm accused of adding nothing to the discussion. Don't agree with me = nothing. Check.

Again, DWV, you ****ing rule this thread dude. Carry on.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Anteater

The role of government in people's lives is never going to be something all people agree upon unilaterally. Geography and circumstances differ too much between individuals to ever achieve consensus. Hence all this heated argument.

Maybe there will be a good excuse someday as mankind gets closer to the singularity (the elimination of most inhibiting factors right now in society thanks to stuff like CRISPR and the advancement of AI) to downsize the role government tends to play in our lives.

Until then though, whether you realize it or not, you are at the government's mercy for better or for worse.

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Chula Vista

I just hate when that stigma finds a way to influence government to pass laws that **** people who honestly need it. Ever been behind someone in a supermarket line who looks absolutely disgusted and appalled having to pay for their food with food stamps? I've never seen people look so defleated. Don't lump them in with any of your narrative.

On one hand I want to and on the other hand I want to say DUH!

Fixing all of this is basically impossible in our current OVERALL situation.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Lucem Ferre

Nobody is lumping them together though. We've all made a clear distinction between the two. If you really look at it, we all want the same thing. The leaches to quit leaching and the people who really need it to get it. How we fix it is the problem. Or maybe we just have to deal with the fact that it's always going to be imperfect and move on.

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Chula Vista

Seriously? Google "pot calling kettle black".

Like in my last post, no easy solution. Just wish folks here could find a way to not lump the truly needy and the leeches into the same off the cuff comments.

Frown. Once again, ..................

Oh **** it. I'll never understand how you achieved mod status. Who makes these decisions? What are they based on? Is this some sort of secret society? Do the rest of the forum membors get a say? If not, why not?

What percentage of members have to speak up about a "nonimated" mod as being unworthy (a ****ing dick) before the secret society take notice?

What's the ****ing executive process around here?

I'm pretty sick of an official MB moderator slinging pompous and pretensious **** at me over and over again. Holding the title, shouldn't you be above it?

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Isbjørn

Agreed.

Anyway, since someone brought up "the leechers", let's just suppose that "leeches" are, indeed, a signifigant problem that's worth solving. Cutting in welfare all across the board to "incentivize" people to find work is a typical neoliberal solution that negatively impacts everyone, so let's just dismiss it out of irrelevance. Here we're talking about ways to find and deal with the "leeches", specifically. If that even is to be possible, a couple of questions appear that need answering:

Who are to decide who "leeches" and who doesn't? Follow-up question, how do we prevent this from becoming a bureaucratic and costly nightmare?

What do we do if people are incorrectly classified as freeloaders? Taking away someone's benefits when they actually need them borders on violence. We need to prevent situations where people who genuinely need benefits lose them due to bureaucratic mismanagement. There are already many instances of this happening - people being deemed "fit to work" when they actually have chronic diseases that keep them from working, and who need public money to afford medicine/implants/protheses etc.

Considering these things, is targeting "leeches" even worth the effort? I don't think so. Being a welfare recipient is already a very undesirable scenario, and signing up for benefits is a bureaucratic and discouraging process in most places. Furthermore, most places require unemployed welfare recipients to actively look for work (in Norway, you're not even registered as "unemployed" until you sign up at the Labour and Welfare Administration and agree to look for work. You have to agree to accept just about any job offer you get). If anything, we should be looking for solutions that make welfare less bureaucratic and less demotivating. Some people have proposed implementing a universal basic income (subsistence wage) that one receives regardless of their work situation. If you want people to get employed, fund job training and reeducation programs. Publicly invest in infrastructure - this will boost the economy and create jobs for many people who are unemployed but fit to work. And so on. These are totally realistic and feasible solutions, even for people who aren't anti-establishment.

Socialists (here represented by Elphenor and me) would argue that unemployment is a natural occurence under capitalism that serves to keep down wages and create competition between workers for the jobs. To permanently fix unemployment issues, we need a planned economy that takes care of the interests of the collective rather than the interests of corporations. By allowing workers influence over their workplace and democratic input on the economy as a whole, people will see work as more than just a means of subsistence, but work to better themselves and their community. But that's another discussion.

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DwnWthVwls

You're not on ignore, I don't use that feature. I'm just not going to engage in anymore bickering.

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I don't got a god complex, you got a simple god...

Lucem Ferre

You guys are making the assumption that most people getting assistance are people that need it. When a lot of us have witnessed plenty of people that do take advantage of it because they are too lazy to get a job.

My father collected government assistance while doing side jobs that he never paid taxes on.

My sister collected government assistance even though her husband who was fully capable of getting a job never looked for a job. Even used my name which I saw nothing of even though I was literally starving at the time.

My friends mom has collected government assistance her whole entire life and has never worked or even looked for a job. She did go to college though. Payed for by the government as well.

I have another friend who collected government assistance with out ever looking for a job. He sold drugs instead. Oh, and his mom would send him a couple thousand dollars and he'd money slap people with it.

The only other person I know that gets government assistance is my friend who has an extreme case of narcolepsy that prevents him from working and they only give him assistance if he's taking college classes.

The only case I can make for the people that don't need is most of the time they have kids and I don't think the children should starve because of a lazy parent.

So according to my personal experience the statistics show that there are extreme flaws in how we do government assistance. I know that's not reliable, but I highly doubt anybody has the real numbers because any collected data is not going to factor in the amount of people that are getting away lying and cheating the system or receiving it even though they don't need it. It can't.

That is why there is a stigma. Too many people personally know somebody that sits on there ass and collects welfare that doesn't need it while they work their ass off just to make the same amount. Don't ignore this or dismiss is it. Put your arrogance away and think about it.

Edit: The most messed up thing is my dad received assistance because they were under the impression that he couldn't work because of his back while he was doing labor jobs that completely contradicts that. My brothers wife who has severe cerebral palsy to the point where she can hardly walk can't receive any government assistance because she's proven she can work by holding down a call center job for 7 years.

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