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Lucem Ferre 12-11-2016 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki (Post 1781669)
I don't make a lot and I don't use food stamps even though I'm applicable because I feel it's makes me less of a person. If I can't provide for myself, I don't feel that someone else should be forced to provide for me. If you make a livable income and are on food stamps, you're a piece of ****.
Yeah this. Unless I had kids or something.

djchameleon 12-11-2016 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neapolitan (Post 1781648)
My bad, no one cheats the welfare system and the rich always pay as much tax as they possibly can. Welfare queens and tax evaders are just as mythical as big foot.
I don't even want to respond to this again. I'm sure I already know your position just based off of how you vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1781657)
Work as a grocery store cashier and tell me the majority of people on food stamps aren't lazy assholes abusing the system. The majority view on the system has been my experience with tons of people I don't know. I've met very few people who are actually trying and on food stamps.
Your judgement is clouded by your anecdotal evidence. I have seen the other side of the coin. Just like how people have too much pride to be on Welfare. There are people that want to get off of it and would desperately love to be working again if they could find a job. Being on welfare isn't the luxurious life at all. The way it is currently set up especially in NY. It is actually hard to get off of Welfare because of how much the system hinders you from trying to get training on the side or going back to school/taking GED courses to better yourself and actually qualify for a better job. Sure there are people that abuse/commit fraud but the percentage of people that do so are few compared to the rest of the cases that legit need help. Businesses take welfare from the government but god forbid someone falls on hard times and needs some assistance after paying into the same system their entire life. That's what it is there for. It was meant to be a transitional temporary program but it has been so corrupted that people end up getting stuck on it and being unable to find work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki (Post 1781669)
I don't make a lot and I don't use food stamps even though I'm applicable because I feel it's makes me less of a person. If I can't provide for myself, I don't feel that someone else should be forced to provide for me. If you make a livable income and are on food stamps, you're a piece of ****.
Yeah that's the thing. People aren't making a livable income. Not everyone can run home to mommy and daddy to have them provide food for them. The majority of people that benefit the most from food stamps are children, the disabled, veterans and seniors. Obama phones are hardly iPhones. They are piece of **** flip phones. Also having lobster for one night then eating ramen noodles and going to food pantries for the rest of the month is hardly the glamorous life that the welfare queen narrative makes it out to be.

Maybe you should apply for food stamps and take the burden off of your parents having to provide food for you. You paid into the system when you were working why not take advantage of it. It's okay. I know you won't do it because you are too prideful and think that people are a piece of **** for surviving.

Mindy 12-11-2016 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1781691)
I don't even want to respond to this again. I'm sure I already know your position just based off of how you vote.



Your judgement is clouded by your anecdotal evidence. I have seen the other side of the coin. Just like how people have too much pride to be on Welfare. There are people that want to get off of it and would desperately love to be working again if they could find a job. Being on welfare isn't the luxurious life at all. The way it is currently set up especially in NY. It is actually hard to get off of Welfare because of how much the system hinders you from trying to get training on the side or going back to school/taking GED courses to better yourself and actually qualify for a better job. Sure there are people that abuse/commit fraud but the percentage of people that do so are few compared to the rest of the cases that legit need help. Businesses take welfare from the government but god forbid someone falls on hard times and needs some assistance after paying into the same system their entire life. That's what it is there for. It was meant to be a transitional temporary program but it has been so corrupted that people end up getting stuck on it and being unable to find work.



Yeah that's the thing. People aren't making a livable income. Not everyone can run home to mommy and daddy to have them provide food for them. The majority of people that benefit the most from food stamps are children, the disabled, veterans and seniors. Obama phones are hardly iPhones. They are piece of **** flip phones. Also having lobster for one night then eating ramen noodles and going to food pantries for the rest of the month is hardly the glamorous life that the welfare queen narrative makes it out to be.

Maybe you should apply for food stamps and take the burden off of your parents having to provide food for you. You paid into the system when you were working why not take advantage of it. It's okay. I know you won't do it because you are too prideful and think that people are a piece of **** for surviving.
http://i.imgur.com/dhMeAzK.gif

Zhanteimi 12-11-2016 04:43 AM
Americans > Foreigners

Lisnaholic 12-11-2016 06:30 AM
Good thread, DJ. Good OP and good defense of the unemployed and the working poor. :clap:

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard 12-11-2016 07:16 AM
DJ, you keep talking about "percentages" yet you haven't provided any actual evidence of this to be the case. You're info is no more valid than DWV's unless you're able to prove that it's true.

I think there are a lot of people on either side, abusing the system and needing the system. But I do not believe throwing money at a person (regardless of the sum) helps to fix a problem. Looking anecdotally at the issue, much like DWV, most people I've seen in these situations are there because more than anything else they're lazy. Tax dollars shouldn't have to pay them to sit around.

Key 12-11-2016 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781783)
It doesn't make you less of a person to accept help from people Jesus Christ our society teaches ****ty values
Nah. I just don't see why I should be on food stamps when I have the ability to make more when people on food stamps don't have the ability to make more. It makes me selfish if I have access to a livable income (but don't bother) to put myself into the same league as those that are disabled or unable to work due to health reasons.

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard 12-11-2016 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781787)
This is your problem, your anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias

Start using basic scientific method

The problem of poverty is not explained away by "people are lazy"
dude you really need to stop putting words in my mouth. I directly said IN MY EXPERIENCE, I never said it was a general rule. I know there's more to poverty to laziness, but that doesn't mean there isn't lazy people that are poor for that very reason.

DwnWthVwls 12-11-2016 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781787)
This is your problem, your anecdotal evidence is subject to confirmation bias

Start using basic scientific method

The problem of poverty is not explained away by "people are lazy"
You're right, it's explained by people making bad decisions(most of the time). My problem isn't with the system, it's how they determine and monitor eligibility.

The Batlord 12-11-2016 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertyy (Post 1781793)
dude you really need to stop putting words in my mouth. I directly said IN MY EXPERIENCE, I never said it was a general rule. I know there's more to poverty to laziness, but that doesn't mean there isn't lazy people that are poor for that very reason.
Granted, this is also my own experience, but po' people ain't lazy. They do dumb ****, rationalize why there's no point in trying to better themselves, and spend much of their money on weed and ****, but they work their asses off way more than Republicans would have you believe. So many of my coworkers have two jobs and fight for hours, and yet they don't put the same effort into trying to pick up a trade or take community classes, largely because the system has convinced them that this is simply their lot in life. It's not laziness, just acceptance.

DwnWthVwls 12-11-2016 11:44 AM
What exactly is a proper education to you? You don't need to graduate high school to know how to have safe sex or use that $20 for food instead of drugs.

DwnWthVwls 12-11-2016 11:48 AM
Are you trying to argue that everyone on welfare has drug addict parents?

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard 12-11-2016 11:54 AM
I think the system should be there to benefit single parents and that's about it.

The Batlord 12-11-2016 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1781805)
What exactly is a proper education to you? You don't need to graduate high school to know how to have safe sex or use that $20 for food instead of drugs.
I'd say this one-size fits all, college or bust style of education is ****. The current American curriculum seems almost entirely based on getting kids into college (which it still doesn't do well) while ignoring any child who will enter the workforce directly after high school. I know some school systems have programs to help kids get into apprenticeships for trades or whatnot, but invariably I also hear that those programs are underfunded, even though they should get just as much attention as any course meant to prepare students for college.

Key 12-11-2016 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertyy (Post 1781814)
I think the system should be there to benefit single parents and that's about it.
Seems like qwert and I are on the same page with this.

djchameleon 12-11-2016 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertyy (Post 1781727)
DJ, you keep talking about "percentages" yet you haven't provided any actual evidence of this to be the case. .

All you have to do is ask me to back it up with stats and I will go provide the stats for you.

I'm not going to do that extra work ahead of time. Pfft.
Quote:
Improper welfare payments, including fraud, are estimated to be 10.1% of all federal welfare payments made and totaled $71.5 billion in fiscal year 2015.
http://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-fraud.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertyy (Post 1781727)
I think there are a lot of people on either side, abusing the system and needing the system. But I do not believe throwing money at a person (regardless of the sum) helps to fix a problem. Looking anecdotally at the issue, much like DWV, most people I've seen in these situations are there because more than anything else they're lazy. Tax dollars shouldn't have to pay them to sit around.
The narrative and based off of people's personal experience. Most people think that everyone is conning and abusing the system but it's just not true. SNAP and Welfare is meant to be a safety net program for when people fall on hard times. When they get fired from their job and unemployment benefits isn't cutting it or whatever other situation that leads to them not being able to survive. I think everyone that can qualify for it should have access to it. It is temporary even though it doesn't seem like it based off how long people have been on it.

Key 12-11-2016 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781870)
If you're getting paid less than 15/hrs you're getting mugged by society anyway
Sure. But I still have the ability and freedom to change that whereas those with disabilities and a fixed income do not. Therefore they should be allowed to enjoy food stamps. If I can get out a find a well paying job, I shouldn't feel the need to get help from the government when I don't need it.

Key 12-11-2016 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781875)
If you have a Burger King job or whatever even if it's part time you ought to be justly compensated for that job

The government is too weak to force massive multi billion dollar corporations to let their workers share in the profits

So at least get an EBT card you've earned it
Of course. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. But what I'm trying to get across is the fact that if you are on food stamps and make a livable wage, you're abusing the system because you feel "more money is better than less". It's the same if someone with a multi million dollar home receives welfare checks. That's how I see it anyway.

Key 12-11-2016 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781879)
I mean you'd have to define "livable wage"

I've made it on a minimum wage job but it was 3-4 roommates in a studio and ****ty like that
In this day and age, I suppose the only livable wage you could find is going to school and getting a degree. I'm not disputing that it's near impossible to find livable wage jobs. Personally it just doesn't seem like food stamps should be abused the way they are. They're far too accessible for people that don't need them. Same goes for unemployment.

My younger brother and his girlfriend use them and they go to school and work full time jobs. They live in a house together with 2 roommates so any expenses go toward EBT. That to me just doesn't feel right, but again, it's just a personal thing.

The Batlord 12-11-2016 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781871)
Also the quality of education you receive varies wildly depending on which side of town you live

Everyone knew which school was the "bad school" when I was growing up
Going there meant the difference between going to college and going to prison
Totally, but that's not something I see changing at all. A refocus on working class vocational training is actually something that might be doable as I see it, and especially if targeted at those "bad schools".

Granted, I'm not an expert on education, but vocational training programs in high schools and programs targeted at giving students on a path to such jobs a bridge between high school and the workplace might not only be more workable, but would make more sense regardless of how much money was allocated to what school.

Sorry to say, but teaching calculus to inner city youths with likely no future at Harvard is probably a waste of our money and their time unless they show an ability and affinity for it. Teaching them how to weld is far more likely to benefit them.

Trollheart 12-11-2016 03:10 PM
Although we have a somewhat different system, I can identify with Ki by comparing this to childrens' allowance here. In Ireland, you get paid for your children a certain amount (don't have kids so don't know how much) regardless of your circumstances. So someone struggling with four kids on the dole (welfare) and no job gets the same benefit as someone who has two cars, two jobs and owns their own house. Doesn't seem fair. So if Ki is saying that, were he in that situation, and being the latter example, he would not take childrens' allowance, then I can understand that. They're meant to help you if you can't make it on your own, not be a supplement when you very easily can.

If I got that totally wrong bear in mind I'm a thick Irishman. :)

Key 12-11-2016 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1781908)
Although we have a somewhat different system, I can identify with Ki by comparing this to childrens' allowance here. In Ireland, you get paid for your children a certain amount (don't have kids so don't know how much) regardless of your circumstances. So someone struggling with four kids on the dole (welfare) and no job gets the same benefit as someone who has two cars, two jobs and owns their own house. Doesn't seem fair. So if Ki is saying that, were he in that situation, and being the latter example, he would not take childrens' allowance, then I can understand that. They're meant to help you if you can't make it on your own, not be a supplement when you very easily can.

If I got that totally wrong bear in mind I'm a thick Irishman. :)
Precisely what I'm getting at.

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard 12-11-2016 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollheart (Post 1781908)
Although we have a somewhat different system, I can identify with Ki by comparing this to childrens' allowance here. In Ireland, you get paid for your children a certain amount (don't have kids so don't know how much) regardless of your circumstances. So someone struggling with four kids on the dole (welfare) and no job gets the same benefit as someone who has two cars, two jobs and owns their own house. Doesn't seem fair. So if Ki is saying that, were he in that situation, and being the latter example, he would not take childrens' allowance, then I can understand that. They're meant to help you if you can't make it on your own, not be a supplement when you very easily can.

If I got that totally wrong bear in mind I'm a thick Irishman. :)
we have child allowance here as well. i would rather see it vary on your income (so someone on the poverty line gets much more than someone well off) so that way they wouldn't need a welfare cheque as well.

djchameleon 12-11-2016 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki (Post 1781882)
In this day and age, I suppose the only livable wage you could find is going to school and getting a degree. I'm not disputing that it's near impossible to find livable wage jobs. Personally it just doesn't seem like food stamps should be abused the way they are. They're far too accessible for people that don't need them. Same goes for unemployment.

My younger brother and his girlfriend use them and they go to school and work full time jobs. They live in a house together with 2 roommates so any expenses go toward EBT. That to me just doesn't feel right, but again, it's just a personal thing.
What do you consider a livable wage?

Maybe it's different in different states but you have to provide information about how much you make and if you are going to school. You also provide your social security. So if you end up lying to them and telling them something that isn't true then you are committing fraud and will be arrested when they do fraud sweeps which they do every once in awhile. Unemployment benefits are something that the employer pays into and I don't see that the same way as applying for food stamps/welfare. Unemployment is a good buffer to help you out after an employer fires you/get laid off/downsized while you are looking for another job. What your younger brother and his gf are doing is illegal if they lied about it and they will get locked up sooner or later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1781889)
I agree with that

There needs to be more programs like the military where they accept and train anyone for a good job
They have job corps that is focused more of trade skills. It's kind of similar to military school but it's usually for 18 years to like 25 I believe.

The Batlord 12-11-2016 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1781949)
They have job corps that is focused more of trade skills. It's kind of similar to military school but it's usually for 18 years to like 25 I believe.
Unfortunately job corps doesn't really seem to advertise. It would be amazing if high schools would steer students not on the fast track to college to job corps, but that just doesn't happen as far as I know.

Exo 12-11-2016 06:14 PM
Quote:
Mr Trump also said in the interview he did not need daily intelligence briefings.
"I'm a smart person, I don't need to be told the same thing in the same way for eight years."

Donald Trump rejects CIA Russia hacking report - BBC News
Oh man. This is hysterically horrifying.

djchameleon 12-11-2016 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exo (Post 1782046)
Oh man. This is hysterically horrifying.
He's so sure that he's going to be in for two terms.

Zhanteimi 12-11-2016 06:19 PM
There won't be another presidential election.

Chula Vista 12-11-2016 06:25 PM
https://scontent.fsan1-1.fna.fbcdn.n...23&oe=58B54996

Ol’ Qwerty Bastard 12-11-2016 06:34 PM
http://www.naturalnews.com/gallery/6...Money-Pile.jpg

Lucem Ferre 12-11-2016 06:38 PM
I think one truth that a lot of lower class people don't want to admit is that most of them are only where they are because they put themselves there. Yeah, they work their asses off at their job, usually harder than most upper class people can fathom, but they never put the effort into getting themselves out. Dumb decisions and ****ty spending habits will forever keep certain people down.

Now the truth that upper class people don't want to admit is despite the fact that yes, you did have to work to get to where you are at, where you are at has much more to do with luck and being in the right place at the right time than any kind of work ethic that set you apart from the lower class people. Face it, if these people were put in the same place as many lower class people were they would get stuck too.

Of course there are always exceptions, but hey.

Oh, and as for taking advantage of the system for welfare and food stamps, it's pretty damn easy. People are always getting away with lying because they don't check up on it is often and strict as they say the do. I know, I've seen it happen. At the same time it does not happen nearly as often as people think. Most people that have admit to using these benefits are the people that used it for a short time when they needed it. And they didn't make it well known that they used it. In fact, a lot of people are embarrassed or ashamed of it. Something I noticed when discussing the topic before.

djchameleon 12-11-2016 06:54 PM
It might be easy in your area to get away with lying but I see it fairly regularly when they do round ups and end up arrested 30 to 35 people that were caught committing fraud.

Lucem Ferre 12-11-2016 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1782075)
It might be easy in your area to get away with lying but I see it fairly regularly when they do round ups and end up arrested 30 to 35 people that were caught committing fraud.
Like a drug raid? I hardly believe. Because remember that Old Dirty Bastard publicly cheated the system.

DwnWthVwls 12-11-2016 07:47 PM
Generally speaking, the only exception to the "environment rule" is people who live in high crime areas where the environment really does have drastic impact on decision making. Having crappy/drug addict parents is not a good excuse.

When you boil it down there are two mindsets (homeless, rich, poor, or middle class):

1) Make it, spend it, f*ck it, you only live once
2) Always put something aside just in case, the future matters

Anyone in category one is not someone I want to be supporting. Living beyond your means is not justification for being a mooch.

Key 12-11-2016 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon (Post 1782050)
He's so sure that he's going to be in for two terms.
Almost as funny as the fact that he thinks he's going to be in one term.

Lucem Ferre 12-11-2016 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1782116)
Generally speaking, the only exception to the "environment rule" is people who live in high crime areas where the environment really does have drastic impact on decision making. Having crappy/drug addict parents is not a good excuse.

When you boil it down there are two mindsets (homeless, rich, poor, or middle class):

1) Make it, spend it, f*ck it, you only live once
2) Always put something aside just in case, the future matters

Anyone in category one is not someone I want to be supporting. Living beyond your means is not justification for being a mooch.
Nothing is ever that simple. People have to know this by now.

DwnWthVwls 12-11-2016 09:37 PM
It's a generalization.

If you have a 3rd, 4th, 5th group you think is worth mentioning then feel free, but in my 30 years life experience those 2 descriptions are pretty easily applied to everyone I've ever met.

Lucem Ferre 12-11-2016 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1782172)
It's a generalization.

If you have a 3rd, 4th, 5th group you think is worth mentioning then feel free, but in my 30 years life experience those 2 descriptions are pretty easily applied to everyone I've ever met.
No I just think there are varying degrees between the two.

djchameleon 12-12-2016 04:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre (Post 1782096)
Like a drug raid? I hardly believe. Because remember that Old Dirty Bastard publicly cheated the system.
24 Orange County residents charged with welfare fraud - News - recordonline.com - Middletown, NY

This is a local paper. When I googled it to show you this article. It seems like they have an article like this every year but I feel like the sweeps happen more often than that. It just isn't as press worthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki (Post 1782119)
Almost as funny as the fact that he thinks he's going to be in one term.
Not even close to the same thing.

Trollheart 12-12-2016 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwertyy (Post 1782067)
She won't be so happy when she's handling bills with Trump's face on them! "Hey man, can you change a fifty trump note?"
"Nah, I only got hundred trumps!" :laughing:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki (Post 1782119)
Almost as funny as the fact that he thinks he's going to be in one term.
He'll abolish the office of President and set himself up as Lord Protector for Life or something.


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