What Did President Trump Do Now?

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 09:12 PM

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Originally Posted by The Batlord

Except that tennis shoes do not have dogma, either scriptural or cultural, that guides the actions of their wearers. I'm honestly not sure how to proceed from here because we're just talking about really basic ****. The shoes you wear do not affect how you see the world. The god you worship can and often does. No pair of Nikes has ever inspired or even been used as a spurious justification for an atrocity. Religion and Islam have. I think you've oversimplified your argument to the point that you don't even have one.

I'm not even arguing that Islam is this great evil compared to other ideologies and religions, I simply think it's dumb to dismiss it as irrelevant as so many people try to do. It's an incredibly powerful force in the lives of millions of people, many of whom use it as a pretext for violence, and whether the specific words of the Quran have caused this violence is in fact irrelevant, because these people have still derived meaning from the texts of Islam that has at the very least justified their actions in their own minds.

Whatever the specifics of the relationship between Islam and Islamic terrorists, to pretend that there is no problem in modern Islam in any way is retarded.

Absolutely correct. It doesn't matter if the number of practicing Muslims who follow Wahhabism are 95% worldwide or .0001% - they still genuinely believe they're following Mohammad's ideals and doing what he would have wanted. Which in this case is conquest (Spain being a territory they wish to reclaim). They're a minority among minorities, but their actions are destructive enough that it creates a huge net effect in how people perceive Islam both culturally and idealogically everywhere else.

This isn't an issue of news coverage or not: the vast majority of the world's terrorism is being committed by people indoctrinated in Wahhabism or some variation of it. You also have the rapes and violence propagated by Syrian (or otherwise) "refugees" in Germany and Sweden. Those governments are not helping these people like they should, and it's adding fuel to the fire.

Religion in general is bullshit, but it seems silly to equivocate the craziest fringes of right-wing Christianity with Wahhabism...because even the Westboro Baptist nutjobs aren't crazy enough to go mow down hundreds of people at an Eagles of Death Metal concert in Paris of all places.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

You don't see how religion is last place on the list of things that decides someone's beliefs?

Take a Christian from NYC and a Christian from butt **** nowhere Texas 10:1 they have entirely different beliefs despite having the same religion

Because religion didn't give them those beliefs

But they don't have the same religion. Any more than a Sunni has the same religion as a Wahhabist. Obviously there are a million things that go into a person's identity, but to claim that religion isn't one of them, and by declaring it to be "last place" you are essentially saying that, is ignorant. I don't compare someone like Gayboy from Lebanon to a Wahhabist from Saudi Arabia, not just because of religion, but without Wahhabism I don't imagine that person would fly a plane into a building. Flying a plane into a building is a pretty ****ing illogical thing for someone, no matter their background, to do.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 09:46 PM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

Japanese managed to turn soilders into human missles without religion

As an atheist I see religion as just another ideology, but one with an often extreme foundation of compliance with the given dogma, and imperial Japan most definitely had an extreme foundation of compliance to rival any religion. And given the belief in the Japanese emperor as divine I'd question whether it wasn't in some ways an actual religion, but honestly that's just conjecture.

You're grasping at straws, bro.

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Yes they do have the same religion they just interpret it differently

This is functionally the same thing as them having a different religion.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 09:53 PM

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Originally Posted by elphenor

Anteater

I'm pretty sure I've already said this but you're making a correlation, causation error

The middle east is the main exporter of terrorism because of its instability and place in the world. Islam happens to be the predominant religion of that region for historical reasons.

Isn't "everything" we observe around us culturally only there because of historical reasons? Nothing materialized out of thin air overnight.

Saudi Arabia has plenty of money and power, but their society is only as rigidly structured as it is because of how they interpret Islam. If they were a modern Christian nation nobody would be getting thrown off buildings. Period. The instability you mention is a byproduct of their particular ideology.

**Janszoon** · 02-01-2017, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Saudi Arabia has plenty of money and power, but their society is only as rigidly structured as it is because of how they interpret Islam. If they were a modern Christian nation nobody would be getting thrown off buildings. Period.

Yeah, no one has ever been thrown off a building in a Christian nation. Amazing argument.

Chula Vista · 02-01-2017, 09:55 PM

I've been missing some deep, deep conversation these past few hours. I still equate an extremist from any religion as equal to any other religious extremist.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 09:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Janszoon

Yeah, no one has ever been thrown off a building in a Christian nation. Amazing argument.

You missed the point. Does the U.S. have some Christian equivalent of Sharia law that's commonplace? Come on now, you can do better than that.

**Janszoon** · 02-01-2017, 09:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Anteater

Does the U.S. have some Christian equivalent of Sharia law that's commonplace? Come on now.

Did I say it did?

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 10:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Janszoon

Did I say it did?

I'll ask this another way. Is getting thrown off a roof for being gay a systemic problem in U.S. culture?

**Janszoon** · 02-01-2017, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

I'll ask this another way. Is getting thrown off a roof for being gay a systemic problem in the U.S. ?

Nope. But that's a markedly different statement than, "If they were a modern Christian nation nobody would be getting thrown off buildings. Period."

02-01-2017, 09:55 PM	#1836 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	I've been missing some deep, deep conversation these past few hours. I still equate an extremist from any religion as equal to any other religious extremist. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”