What Did President Trump Do Now?

duga · 02-01-2017, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Nope. The "culture" surrounding Islam has not evolved an iota in centuries, whereas (for the most part) Christianity has grown up and found a way to exist in the modern world without the Pope and other heads of different denominations aiming to decimate the "enemy".

Unfortunately, many contemporary Muslims who don't care for the conquest-oriented rhetoric of their prophet are collateral damage in this battle against extremism. It's a complicated issue, but there's no solution where nobody gets hurt as long as you have thought leaders on the other side of the ocean who advocate for the type of society that Saudi Arabia has.

It doesn't matter if "historically" Christianity was violent: every religion has had its growing pains. That's not the point. The problem is we are living in the modern world yet Islam still hasn't gotten over its teething stage. If you go to Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq, etc. you see what societies structured by that belief system are like, you would not want to live in those societies. If you speak out against them and say they're "really" following Islam, they'll cut off your head. That's the reality of the world we live in, so I'm sorry if you don't acknowledge that.

I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture. Persecute a group of people and of course that will galvanize their beliefs. Muslims who are engaged and accepted into mainstream society are just as peaceful and understanding as the next person. The Arab Spring happened as a result of western meddling. Every society has a group of uneducated and downtrodden people who are only looking for someone to lead them to a better life - in the west, the Republicans took advantage of that. In the middle east, it was Al Qaeda, ISIS, whatever extremist flavor of the month it is today. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan - take a look at people from the 70's before the Islamic Revolution. I would say they were meshing just fine with contemporary society. I've been to Turkey, and while they are proud of their culture, it's not the oppressive wasteland people like to paint it as.

You don't think violent Christians willing to wage a war in the name of god exist? They do...and there are quite a few of them. The difference is, they currently have an outlet for their frustrations in the form of Donald Trump. If you think Christianity is beyond what is happening in the Muslim world, then again, you are kidding yourself.

If we ignore that frustration in the middle east is taking the form of religious zealotry, we can see that the real problem is just that these people want to be LEFT ALONE, free from western meddling. Just like anyone would want. Pinning this on the inherent violence of Islam is, as I said, ignorant and narrow minded.

Key · 02-01-2017, 10:37 AM

Welp, Sessions was confirmed. What is it going to take for the GOP to realize that what they're confirming is worse for this country? Do people need to start dying before they get off their asses and do something for the people in the country?

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture. Persecute a group of people and of course that will galvanize their beliefs. Muslims who are engaged and accepted into mainstream society are just as peaceful and understanding as the next person. The Arab Spring happened as a result of western meddling. Every society has a group of uneducated and downtrodden people who are only looking for someone to lead them to a better life - in the west, the Republicans took advantage of that. In the middle east, it was Al Qaeda, ISIS, whatever extremist flavor of the month it is today. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan - take a look at people from the 70's before the Islamic Revolution. I would say they were meshing just fine with contemporary society. I've been to Turkey, and while they are proud of their culture, it's not the oppressive wasteland people like to paint it as.

You don't think violent Christians willing to wage a war in the name of god exist? They do...and there are quite a few of them. The difference is, they currently have an outlet for their frustrations in the form of Donald Trump. If you think Christianity is beyond what is happening in the Muslim world, then again, you are kidding yourself.

If we ignore that frustration in the middle east is taking the form of religious zealotry, we can see that the real problem is just that these people want to be LEFT ALONE, free from western meddling. Just like anyone would want. Pinning this on the inherent violence of Islam is, as I said, ignorant and narrow minded.

1. I agree the west should have just left the Middle East alone as opposed to meddling circa WW2 and beyond. We are part of the problem too, but the fundamentalist ideology existed in Saudi Arabia and beyond for centuries before now. We woke a sleeping dragon, so to speak.

2. You must have missed it when I said "Yeah you have some minority nutjob denominations, but they generally keep to themselves and have no control over society, culture, etc." It isn't impossible for Christianity to become violently galvanized at the scale we're discussing in the Middle East, but now we're in "what if" territory which is a waste of time.

3. Everything we're talking about predates Donald Trump. Clinton and Bush fit the bill just as well (among others we've had in the past).

4. They don't like Western meddling for sure, but they're committing acts of terrorism in countries that have nothing to do with "Western" culture as well. Pulling out completely would be an interesting option, but you are naive if you believe that's the only motivation they have. Violence is a fundamental face to their belief system just as certain aspects of the Old Testament prevail in various Christian ideologies (and don't get me started on Calvinism lol). Difference is, fundamentalist Christians aren't strapping bomb vests on children and sending them out into the streets. If you really believe the violence isn't cultural or ingrained to some degree then you are deluding yourself. It is completely inexcusable.

**Frownland** · 02-01-2017, 10:53 AM

You won't have a good handle on your credibility for long if you continue to define Islam by the middle east. There's a whole lot else that's wrong with what you've said but I'm too lazy to put all that work into being ignored.

Chula Vista · 02-01-2017, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Nope. The fundamental culture surrounding Islam has not evolved an iota in centuries, whereas (for the most part) Christianity has grown up and found a way to exist in the modern world without the Pope and other heads of different denominations aiming to decimate the "enemy". Yeah you have some minority nutjob denominations, but they generally keep to themselves and have no control over society, culture, etc. That is not the case at all with Islam today.

Unfortunately, many contemporary Muslims who don't care for the conquest-oriented rhetoric of their prophet are collateral damage in this battle against extremism. You could argue that they're "selective" readers and the equivalent of a "non-denominational" Christian who only reads the New Testament, but I digress. It's a complicated issue, but there's no solution where nobody gets hurt as long as you have thought leaders on the other side of the ocean who advocate for the type of society that Saudi Arabia has.

It doesn't matter if "historically" Christianity was violent: every religion has had its growing pains. That's not the point. The problem is we are living in the modern world yet Islam still hasn't gotten over its teething stage. If you go to Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq, etc. you see what societies structured by that belief system are like, you would not want to live in those societies. If you speak out against them and say they're not "really" following Islam, they'll cut off your head. That's the reality of the world we live in, so I'm sorry if you don't acknowledge that.

You really are a bigot. Although a somewhat cultured one. I wish you could read the **** you type through a 100% clear lens. I think you'd be a bit ashamed of yourself.

You do realize that there's approx. 1.5 billion people all over the planet who are of the muslim faith, right? In all countries including the USA. And that 99% of them are modernized, cultured like yourself, educated, hard working, and as peaceful as could be. You realize that right?

Put away your broad brush man.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 11:10 AM

You guys have all completely missed the point. Why am I not surprised that liberals can't tell the difference between discussing PEOPLE and discussing IDEOLOGY. Question: Islam originated in "which" part of the world? That's what I thought. I agreed the world was full of peaceful awesome Muslims. I'm talking about a specific part of the world and ground zero for the purest form of cultural and religious ideology for the Islamic faith.

Oh wait, I'm a bigot for talking about problems in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Whoops! I also made a comparison point to the peaceful majority's practicing of Islam to the non-denominational Christians. That's the path of co-existence. But what can I expect from people with zero reading comprehension? Good grief.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 02-01-2017, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

You really are a bigot. Although a somewhat cultured one. I wish you could read the **** you type through a 100% clear lens. I think you'd be a bit ashamed of yourself.

You do realize that there's approx. 1.5 billion people all over the planet who are of the muslim faith, right? In all countries including the USA. And that 99% of them are modernized, cultured like yourself, educated, hard working, and as peaceful as could be. You realize that right?

Put away your broad brush man.

You're conflating the ideology with the people. At least argue against the claim that was made.

**Frownland** · 02-01-2017, 11:12 AM

So it's cultural and not actually related to Islam? And that defining the whole of Islam off of a small segment of people in that religion is a pretty ignorant thing to do? Oh okay, I didn't realize we were agreeing here.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

So it's cultural and not actually related to Islam? And that defining the whole of Islam off of a small segment of people in that religion is a pretty ignorant thing to do? Oh okay, I didn't realize we were agreeing here.

Correct. Islam itself isn't the enemy, it's Wahhabism and related ideologies / interpretations of Islam.

One of the root issues is that you have a surprising amount of thought leaders in Islam itself who adhere to elements of Wahhabism, which is evidence that Islam as a whole is still going through the teething stage I discussed before. Since this ideology persists strongly in Islam's geological place of origin, I believe it contributes greatly to the violence we observe today.

**Frownland** · 02-01-2017, 11:31 AM

You have state-funded clerics in Saudi Arabia, yes, but using that as justification to suggest that Islam as a whole is culturally inferior to Christianity (let's just ignore Africa for now) ignores the diversity within Islam and, again, is very ignorant.

Also consider Christianity started in modern day Israel and look at where that country's at! It's almost like the country of origin isn't as relevant as a lot of people insist that it is when they want you to ignore the big picture.

02-01-2017, 10:53 AM	#1764 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	You won't have a good handle on your credibility for long if you continue to define Islam by the middle east. There's a whole lot else that's wrong with what you've said but I'm too lazy to put all that work into being ignored. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-01-2017, 11:12 AM	#1768 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	So it's cultural and not actually related to Islam? And that defining the whole of Islam off of a small segment of people in that religion is a pretty ignorant thing to do? Oh okay, I didn't realize we were agreeing here. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-01-2017, 11:31 AM	#1770 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	You have state-funded clerics in Saudi Arabia, yes, but using that as justification to suggest that Islam as a whole is culturally inferior to Christianity (let's just ignore Africa for now) ignores the diversity within Islam and, again, is very ignorant. Also consider Christianity started in modern day Israel and look at where that country's at! It's almost like the country of origin isn't as relevant as a lot of people insist that it is when they want you to ignore the big picture. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-01-2017, 10:37 AM	#1762 (permalink)
Key . Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 13,153	Welp, Sessions was confirmed. What is it going to take for the GOP to realize that what they're confirming is worse for this country? Do people need to start dying before they get off their asses and do something for the people in the country?