What Did President Trump Do Now?

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

The world supports the left's progressive policies for the most part and the world has been moving towards being more liberal for the past 40-50 years. Take polls of just the millennials onward and you will see an overwhelming majority support liberal policy. You can't have one side playing by the rules and the other thinking they are above them...now we are on an equal playing field.

The rest of the world is also in complete chaos. We've made great progress but created a completely different set of problems as a result of what you are describing. It's a shame really: I'd shift from being libertarian to liberal if they weren't so boneheaded in regards to dealing with the underlying ideology of Islam (religion of peace? Yeah sure) and stopped being so obsessed with disingenuous identity politics. But they won't change or support intelligent policy in the name of inclusivity, and that is one of the biggest reasons why people like Trump have come to power.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

What you're saying is you need a safe to be a bigot pretty much

So you think inclusivity to the degree as described by Jonathan Haidt above is healthy for society? You are way too narrow minded if "bigot" is the first thing you come up with after reading what I said.

**Frownland** · 02-01-2017, 08:52 AM

Whoever coined the term religion of peace must've been some kind of obnoxious SJW.

duga · 02-01-2017, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

The rest of the world is also in complete chaos. We've made great progress but created a completely different set of problems as a result of what you are describing. It's a shame really: I'd shift from being libertarian to liberal if they weren't so boneheaded in regards to dealing with the underlying ideology of Islam (religion of peace? Yeah sure) and stopped being so obsessed with disingenuous identity politics. But they won't change or support intelligent policy in the name of inclusivity, and that is one of the biggest reasons why people like Trump have come to power.

I'll have to watch this later, but I'm assuming it decrying the extreme left's SJW culture. I think that extremism in any form (be it conservative or liberal) is blinding and I don't support it. "Safe spaces" are a dumb concept. You always need someone to play devil's advocate. There should always be a place for the opposing view. But both sides need mutual respect for each other and a willingness to be flexible. We've gone from two opposing sides working together to two sides vying for control at the expense of the other side. The liberals in the world - being a bit too inclusive and PC - refused to bend the rules the way the conservatives of the world have. And conservatives have been taking advantage for the past 17 years. That's why the world is in chaos - not because there is something wrong with a liberal outlook.

In the end, you can't stop progress. You can't stop globalization. An isolationist attitude is regressive and won't help advance the human race. Liberals are thinking of what's good for humans while conservatives seem to be focused on what's good for whatever country they are from. Nationalism on that level is outdated and what we are seeing is a desperate attempt for them to stay relevant. We may have hard times ahead, but if you think the world will be MORE conservative once the dust settles, you are kidding yourself.

And I fundamentally disagree with you on Islam. That's just straight up ignorant. I'm not even going to bother expanding on that because if you've been able to block out all evidence to the contrary up to now, nothing I say will change your mind. Historically, Christianity is just as violent (if not moreso). If you are going to say that about Islam, you may as well say it about ALL religions.

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

And I fundamentally disagree with you on Islam. That's just straight up ignorant. I'm not even going to bother expanding on that because if you've been able to block out all evidence to the contrary up to now, nothing I say will change your mind. Historically, Christianity is just as violent (if not moreso). If you are going to say that about Islam, you may as well say it about ALL religions.

Nope. The fundamental culture surrounding Islam has not evolved an iota in centuries, whereas (for the most part) Christianity has grown up and found a way to exist in the modern world without the Pope and other heads of different denominations aiming to decimate the "enemy". Yeah you have some minority nutjob denominations, but they generally keep to themselves and have no control over society, culture, etc. That is not the case at all with Islam today.

Unfortunately, many contemporary Muslims who don't care for the conquest-oriented rhetoric of their prophet are collateral damage in this battle against extremism. You could argue that they're "selective" readers and the equivalent of a "non-denominational" Christian who only reads the New Testament, but I digress. It's a complicated issue, but there's no solution where nobody gets hurt as long as you have thought leaders on the other side of the ocean who advocate for the type of society that Saudi Arabia has.

It doesn't matter if "historically" Christianity was violent: every religion has had its growing pains. That's not the point. The problem is we are living in the modern world yet Islam still hasn't gotten over its teething stage. If you go to Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq, etc. you see what societies structured by that belief system are like, you would not want to live in those societies. If you speak out against them and say they're not "really" following Islam, they'll cut off your head. That's the reality of the world we live in, so I'm sorry if you don't acknowledge that.

**Frownland** · 02-01-2017, 09:30 AM

duga · 02-01-2017, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Nope. The "culture" surrounding Islam has not evolved an iota in centuries, whereas (for the most part) Christianity has grown up and found a way to exist in the modern world without the Pope and other heads of different denominations aiming to decimate the "enemy".

Unfortunately, many contemporary Muslims who don't care for the conquest-oriented rhetoric of their prophet are collateral damage in this battle against extremism. It's a complicated issue, but there's no solution where nobody gets hurt as long as you have thought leaders on the other side of the ocean who advocate for the type of society that Saudi Arabia has.

It doesn't matter if "historically" Christianity was violent: every religion has had its growing pains. That's not the point. The problem is we are living in the modern world yet Islam still hasn't gotten over its teething stage. If you go to Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq, etc. you see what societies structured by that belief system are like, you would not want to live in those societies. If you speak out against them and say they're "really" following Islam, they'll cut off your head. That's the reality of the world we live in, so I'm sorry if you don't acknowledge that.

I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture. Persecute a group of people and of course that will galvanize their beliefs. Muslims who are engaged and accepted into mainstream society are just as peaceful and understanding as the next person. The Arab Spring happened as a result of western meddling. Every society has a group of uneducated and downtrodden people who are only looking for someone to lead them to a better life - in the west, the Republicans took advantage of that. In the middle east, it was Al Qaeda, ISIS, whatever extremist flavor of the month it is today. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan - take a look at people from the 70's before the Islamic Revolution. I would say they were meshing just fine with contemporary society. I've been to Turkey, and while they are proud of their culture, it's not the oppressive wasteland people like to paint it as.

You don't think violent Christians willing to wage a war in the name of god exist? They do...and there are quite a few of them. The difference is, they currently have an outlet for their frustrations in the form of Donald Trump. If you think Christianity is beyond what is happening in the Muslim world, then again, you are kidding yourself.

If we ignore that frustration in the middle east is taking the form of religious zealotry, we can see that the real problem is just that these people want to be LEFT ALONE, free from western meddling. Just like anyone would want. Pinning this on the inherent violence of Islam is, as I said, ignorant and narrow minded.

Key · 02-01-2017, 09:37 AM

Welp, Sessions was confirmed. What is it going to take for the GOP to realize that what they're confirming is worse for this country? Do people need to start dying before they get off their asses and do something for the people in the country?

Anteater · 02-01-2017, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I don't think you are looking at the bigger picture. Persecute a group of people and of course that will galvanize their beliefs. Muslims who are engaged and accepted into mainstream society are just as peaceful and understanding as the next person. The Arab Spring happened as a result of western meddling. Every society has a group of uneducated and downtrodden people who are only looking for someone to lead them to a better life - in the west, the Republicans took advantage of that. In the middle east, it was Al Qaeda, ISIS, whatever extremist flavor of the month it is today. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan - take a look at people from the 70's before the Islamic Revolution. I would say they were meshing just fine with contemporary society. I've been to Turkey, and while they are proud of their culture, it's not the oppressive wasteland people like to paint it as.

You don't think violent Christians willing to wage a war in the name of god exist? They do...and there are quite a few of them. The difference is, they currently have an outlet for their frustrations in the form of Donald Trump. If you think Christianity is beyond what is happening in the Muslim world, then again, you are kidding yourself.

If we ignore that frustration in the middle east is taking the form of religious zealotry, we can see that the real problem is just that these people want to be LEFT ALONE, free from western meddling. Just like anyone would want. Pinning this on the inherent violence of Islam is, as I said, ignorant and narrow minded.

1. I agree the west should have just left the Middle East alone as opposed to meddling circa WW2 and beyond. We are part of the problem too, but the fundamentalist ideology existed in Saudi Arabia and beyond for centuries before now. We woke a sleeping dragon, so to speak.

2. You must have missed it when I said "Yeah you have some minority nutjob denominations, but they generally keep to themselves and have no control over society, culture, etc." It isn't impossible for Christianity to become violently galvanized at the scale we're discussing in the Middle East, but now we're in "what if" territory which is a waste of time.

3. Everything we're talking about predates Donald Trump. Clinton and Bush fit the bill just as well (among others we've had in the past).

4. They don't like Western meddling for sure, but they're committing acts of terrorism in countries that have nothing to do with "Western" culture as well. Pulling out completely would be an interesting option, but you are naive if you believe that's the only motivation they have. Violence is a fundamental face to their belief system just as certain aspects of the Old Testament prevail in various Christian ideologies (and don't get me started on Calvinism lol). Difference is, fundamentalist Christians aren't strapping bomb vests on children and sending them out into the streets. If you really believe the violence isn't cultural or ingrained to some degree then you are deluding yourself. It is completely inexcusable.

**Frownland** · 02-01-2017, 09:53 AM

You won't have a good handle on your credibility for long if you continue to define Islam by the middle east. There's a whole lot else that's wrong with what you've said but I'm too lazy to put all that work into being ignored.

02-01-2017, 08:52 AM	#1753 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Whoever coined the term religion of peace must've been some kind of obnoxious SJW. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-01-2017, 09:30 AM	#1756 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	__________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-01-2017, 09:53 AM	#1760 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	You won't have a good handle on your credibility for long if you continue to define Islam by the middle east. There's a whole lot else that's wrong with what you've said but I'm too lazy to put all that work into being ignored. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-01-2017, 09:37 AM	#1758 (permalink)
Key . Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 13,153	Welp, Sessions was confirmed. What is it going to take for the GOP to realize that what they're confirming is worse for this country? Do people need to start dying before they get off their asses and do something for the people in the country?