What Did President Trump Do Now?

duga · 02-01-2017, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

1. I agree the west should have just left the Middle East alone as opposed to meddling circa WW2 and beyond. We are part of the problem too, but the fundamentalist ideology existed in Saudi Arabia and beyond for centuries before now. We woke a sleeping dragon, so to speak.

2. You must have missed it when I said "Yeah you have some minority nutjob denominations, but they generally keep to themselves and have no control over society, culture, etc." It isn't impossible for Christianity to become violently galvanized at the scale we're discussing in the Middle East, but now we're in "what if" territory which is a waste of time.

3. Everything we're talking about predates Donald Trump. Clinton and Bush fit the bill just as well (among others we've had in the past).

4. They don't like Western meddling for sure, but they're committing acts of terrorism in countries that have nothing to do with "Western" culture as well. Pulling out completely would be an interesting option, but you are naive if you believe that's the only motivation they have. Violence is a fundamental face to their belief system just as certain aspects of the Old Testament prevail in various Christian ideologies (and don't get me started on Calvinism lol). Difference is, fundamentalist Christians aren't strapping bomb vests on children and sending them out into the streets. If you really believe the violence isn't cultural or ingrained to some degree then you are deluding yourself. It is completely inexcusable.

1. My point was this fundamentalist ideology exists in EVERY RELIGION. This gets to my belief that religion in general needs to fade away, but that's another discussion. There's a sleeping dragon waiting behind every person with a belief system that does not require proof but does require absolute devotion.

2. It's not a matter of "what if?", it's a matter of "what would it take?". Religious texts are vague, translated a million times over, and couched in metaphor. Anything like that can be interpreted to fit your world view. Replace Muslims with Christians and I guarantee you we would be saying Christianity is a religion of violence. ANY belief system coupled with poverty and poor education can be taken advantage of.

3. I never said I agreed with all of this up until Donald Trump. It's just that up until this point, our world leaders recognized the tenuous situation and threw in a splash of diplomacy to keep things from boiling over. This ban now signals to that side of the world that yes - we are at war with Islam, not just extremism. This will galvanize them further.

4. Planned Parenthood. Plenty of domestic terrorism going on there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

You guys have all completely missed the point. Why am I not surprised that liberals can't tell the difference between discussing PEOPLE and discussing IDEOLOGY. Question: Islam originated in "which" part of the world? That's what I thought. I agreed the world was full of peaceful awesome Muslims. I'm talking about a specific part of the world and ground zero for the purest form of cultural and religious ideology for the Islamic faith.

Oh wait, I'm a bigot for talking about problems in Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Whoops! I also made a comparison point to the peaceful majority's practicing of Islam to the non-denominational Christians. That's the path of co-existence. But what can I expect from people with zero reading comprehension? Good grief.

When you state that Islamic ideology is inherently violent, you apply that to every person that follows that religion. With claims like this, you can't separate the people from the ideology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Correct. Islam itself isn't the enemy, it's Wahhabism and related ideologies / interpretations of Islam.

One of the root issues is that you have a surprising amount of thought leaders in Islam itself who adhere to elements of Wahhabism, which is evidence that Islam as a whole is still going through the teething stage I discussed before. Since this ideology persists strongly in Islam's geological place of origin, I believe it contributes greatly to the violence we observe today.

It has nothing to do with its origin. Again, replace Islam with Christianity and you get the same reaction, regardless of where you are in the world. The people there couldn't trust their government (since we've installed despot after despot in order to control the region) or the outside world (since everyone seems to want their oil). Who would you turn to? The only person who seems to be on your side and claims to have all the solutions. In this case, their religious leaders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

And I love it when wonderful fellows like Frownland point out what I've already said in regards to the evolution of Christianity.

I already explained the big picture: Islam will never get to the point where Christianity is at as long as Wahhabism and related ideologies / interpretations of Islam continue to dominate the global conversation. I doubt you'd have so much fear of Islam worldwide if you could just take that one "part" of the diversity out of the equation. Take one or two bad apples out of the barrel and the whole stigma disappears.

(I'm agnostic by the way...not that anyone cares)

It is ALREADY AT THAT POINT. This extremist attitude is a REGRESSION, and one that ANY belief system risks falling into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater

Yep. Scary how much influence they have despite being the global minority right?

What influence? Seems to me to western world does what they want regardless of how much yelling the extremists do. Seeing it on the news all the time is not the same thing as having lots of influence.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 02-01-2017, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Muslim's are of the Islamic faith. Therefore Muslim = Islam.

Christians are of the biblical faith. Therefore Christian = Bible.

No. Islam is the religion. Muslims are people who may or may not practice Islam.

Chula Vista · 02-01-2017, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man like Monkey

No. Islam is the religion. Muslims are people who may or may not practice Islam.

Mus·lim
ˈməzləm,ˈmo͝ozləm/
noun
1.
a follower of the religion of Islam.
adjective
1.
relating to the Muslims or their religion.

If you are born Muslim you are pretty much predisposed to the Islamic faith.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 03:44 PM

My big issue with the modern, liberal conception of Islam is that so many people claim that the worst parts come from the Hadith (and other **** I don't know) as if that and other things have no importance simply because they aren't from the Quran. But if the Hadith is important to modern fundamentalist Islam then does it really matter if it isn't a part of the actual Quran? Like, so many ****ty parts of Christianity may or may not come directly from the Bible, but if they don't then does it matter if those ****ty parts are still believed?

**Frownland** · 02-01-2017, 03:49 PM

The hadiths are controversial as to whether or not Muhammad actually said them. The Quran is universally accepted by the Islamic community as legit (well, generally; there's a lot of fuss about translations and all that).

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

The hadiths are controversial as to whether or not Muhammad actually said them. The Quran is universally accepted by the Islamic community as legit (well, generally; there's a lot of fuss about translations and all that).

Yeah, no, I know that full well, but how much of the Muslim world recognizes the Hadiths? It's kind of important the percentage of those who do and don't. If the Hadiths are ignored by a significant majority then it's whatevs, but if a large enough portion of Islam consider the Hadiths to be at least important then saying that they're not exactly 100% canon is kind of pointless.

Chula Vista · 02-01-2017, 03:59 PM

The old testament of the bible is some of the scariest **** ever.

And I absolutely hate Christians that cherry pick. Either the complete bible is your tome or it's not.

The Batlord · 02-01-2017, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

The old testament of the bible is some of the scariest **** ever.

And I absolutely hate Christians that cherry pick. Either the complete bible is your tome or it's not.

I'd way rather deal with Christians who cherry pick and aren't Westboro Baptist types than relatively logical people who are lazy Christians. The former probably have personality disorders while the latter are just kind of lazy. Why would you want to deal with the former?

Chula Vista · 02-01-2017, 04:10 PM

If you believe in God then the Bible is infallible. Old and New testaments. Read the bible and have your mind turned inside out. Most of that **** is insane.

Any world leader, politician, or court appointee who leans on that crap is not worthy of telling me how I should live my life. Or telling my daughter what she can or can't do. **** that ****.

Pet_Sounds · 02-01-2017, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

The old testament of the bible is some of the scariest **** ever.

And I absolutely hate Christians that cherry pick. Either the complete bible is your tome or it's not.

From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Christianity, I thought the New Testament negated the Old Testament.

02-01-2017, 03:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	The hadiths are controversial as to whether or not Muhammad actually said them. The Quran is universally accepted by the Islamic community as legit (well, generally; there's a lot of fuss about translations and all that). __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

02-01-2017, 03:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	The old testament of the bible is some of the scariest **** ever. And I absolutely hate Christians that cherry pick. Either the complete bible is your tome or it's not. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

02-01-2017, 04:10 PM	#9 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	If you believe in God then the Bible is infallible. Old and New testaments. Read the bible and have your mind turned inside out. Most of that ** is insane. Any world leader, politician, or court appointee who leans on that crap is not worthy of telling me how I should live my life. Or telling my daughter what she can or can't do. that **. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”