Frownland

Is a business doing what it wants always best for the employees?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triang...t_Factory_fire

And to think, businesses who actually treat their customers well will not have to change. There's some kind of way to make that appeal to free market boners but I don't feel like drawing the connection.

That can obviously play a role in it. It becomes naive when you ignore things like being born into poverty, needing a car/education (which are too expensive to buy while having things like food and housing) to get out of that lifestyle, inherited debt through death or marriage, mental illnesses, and extremely competitive markets keeping the inexperienced out of work all contributing to people being in poverty.

Just because it's possible to get yourself out of a situation by working three minimum wage jobs and not living any kind of meaningful life, does not mean that being there is a choice. More people face obstacles that put them in that situation, not by being a lazy bastard who wants to tek all the hard workers moneys and ripoff the welfare state. That's also not to say that there aren't people who take advantage of the system, but that's generally a small minority of the people who use these benefits.

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Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

William_the_Bloody

We may be on the same page when it comes to political correctness but I can't join you on this one. The western world has been on the Classical liberal train since Ronald Reagan, and everyone has been getting poorer in North America.

Hong Kong is the model for libertarianism around the world. It has the freest economy in the world, it embraces limited government and classical liberalism and I would not want to live there; it's inequality and poverty is out of control. Even countries like Chili that wholeheartedly embraced classical liberalism had to roll things back as a result of social unrest.

As for the poor not making the right decisions. I come from a poor background so I have a few things to say about that.

1) It is exceedingly difficult to get ahead if your born into a family without savings you can depend on; especially in a globalized economy that inflates property value. I know people who work two jobs, save and save and they are still broke.

2) Poor people often make bad decisions because they come from homes with broken down families. I can personally attest to this; it takes years before you get your head screwed on right. People from stable two parent family homes have no idea of the social advantages they enjoy.

3) Bad decisions are often the result of mental health issues (depression, anxiety, bi polar syndrome) If you look at studies of low income or homeless people you will find two striking trends, 1) a large segment comes from single parent or abusive families, and a large segment has mental health issues. I personally feel that homelesness is a war on the mentally ill myself.

I think social conservatives like Peter Hitchens make some valid points that I often agree with, but I find the views of libertarian pioneers like Ayn Rand and John Hospers to be somewhat sociopathic and repugnant myself.

Goofle

I'm not saying Libertarianism or Anarcho-Capitalism would work flawlessly, I'm making their case. And I can also see that the current way of doing things clearly isn't going so well either, and going even further into socialist politics (which a few seem to be advocating) will only make things worse.

I don't know any of the solutions, and it's a damn good thing to admit.

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William_the_Bloody

That's fine. I'm not opposed to classical liberalism (Hayek, Friedman) on ideological grounds, but rather because it's making people in North America poorer, in comparison to the post war period of say the 1950's to the mid 1980's, where wages were high and the cost of living was low.

If someone could sit me down and convince me that free trade, the decline of unions, (and yes!) the acceleration of the free movement of labour were beneficial to the wages of the working class I would be for it.

The Batlord

And if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their asses when they hop. Do you propose 1984-esque reeducation sessions for all CEOs to make them more labor friendly? The only thing more inevitable than greedy politicians is greedy corporations. Saying they need to "stop being greedy ****s" is so incredibly pointless that I don't know why you would even say it.

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Isbjørn

As The Batlord says, they won't stop being greedy ****s by themselves. Exploitation of workers is what keeps capitalism going. A capitalist who doesn't keep down the wages of his workers will either lose against his competitors, or have to cut his own profit, which is out of the question. In order to have full employment, full housing, a decent life for everyone, a healthy environment etc., the working majority will have to abolish capitalism so that the economy can be run democratically in a way that takes people's needs into consideration rather than profits.

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The Batlord

You're gonna love college.

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Isbjørn

My dream is to make Bernie Sanders look like a neo-liberal.

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Goofle

Quit, you're making me horny.

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djchameleon

it might seem like a pointless statement but if you actually think about it. There is a solution to fix that.

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Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.