The Islam Thread

[jwb]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I think you could make a good case that America was instrumental in radicalizing Iran (to the extent they are radicalized - I still think the typical Iranian is pretty mellow they just have a really difficult power structure there)

Yeah I could see the argument for Iran.

[Lucem Ferre]

I'd say based on Iranian activism.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

I'd say based on Iranian activism.

But I mean in terms of the broader trend there is no telling what direction the larger middle east would take without intervention. For example in Egypt the pan-Arab secular regime of Nasser overthrew the colonial govt with the help of the Muslim brotherhood... And later that same secular pan Arab regime became estranged with the MB as their views diverged.

Eventually the MB were intent on overthrowing the secular regime and were considered a terrorist group by the state. This was long before any ties to the US.

This is just to say that religious conservatives will reject modernity whether it's imposed imperially or manifests organically. The imperialism just magnifies the effect. So I agree we probably made things worse by all accounts... I just don't agree with if America didn't intervene they'd be on a streamlined path to secularism.

The diminishing of religion in our own society was a long a bloody ordeal and I don't know why we would expect differently from theirs. And above all else I just get the sense that the common trope of America is to blame for everything is to simplistic and robs the rest of the world of their agency.

[Lucem Ferre]

I think Iran was already on a streamlined path to secularism before the Iranian revolution, but I could agree. I don't know what would have been.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

I think Iran was already on a streamlined path to secularism before the Iranian revolution, but I could agree. I don't know what would have been.

Like I said I can see the argument for Iran in particular. Just not necessarily the entire Muslim world. Iran has the benefit of being Shia and thus largely immune to Saudi based Wahhabism, and they had a relatively secularized Persian culture already.

[Lucem Ferre]

IDK, I think that's as big an if as my blaming America for Islamic conservatism.

You honestly can't know how much homophobia is a result of Christianity/Islam actively preaching it.

[jwb]

It's not even an if. The more religious(abrahamic) a society the more sexual repression and homophobia there is generally.

And my point is it's not actually broadbrushing Christians to point out doctrinal flaws like the blatant and obvious anti gay sentiment in the Bible. It's a simple statement of fact. Obviously not everyone follows it that way.

[Lucem Ferre]

Christianity is Satanism to me.


Islam is feminism to me.


Judaism is Nazism to me.

[Lucem Ferre]

I'm a Maoist and Maoism means pro capitalism and love your landlord. Forget what's preached it's what ever I want it to be.

[jwb]

So you're going with the chicken/egg routine

Once again though you pick a vague enough term like "tradition." This is just like the "culture" argument all over again. Religion is intimately and inextricably linked to both tradition and culture. It also acts as an explicit mechanism for preserving both.