The Islam Thread

[jwb]

Originally Posted by elphenor

forget whether it's bigoted (it is)

it's stupid

it implies Muslims can't ever move past traditionalism without removing Islam, something that's plainly false

the dumbassery of it all even emboldens the extremists, if anyone were serious about addressing the issues, they'd seek to bolster secular Islam

Er... No. Saying there are obvious problems that stem from the religion in general or that the religion itself is a net negative force in the world is not saying what Muslims can or can't do. It's not up to me to try to craft a more liberal interpretation of Islam that I find more palatable. That's what religions naturally do when confronted with modernity and secular criticism. They split into factions of reformers and fundamentalists.

It's exactly the same approach we have with Christianity. You don't have to pretend the Bible isn't blatantly homophobic. You can offer the criticism that it is, and Christians will tend to either 1) double down on homophobia 2) develop increasingly convoluted and creative arguments for why it's not homophobic 3) leave the religion. Option 3 is rare. Whether you choose option 1 or 2 will largely tend to depend on whether you have inherently liberal disposition. For the people who choose option 2, they make the religion more tolerant by essentially watering it down. They're slowly leaving the religion without actually realizing it. Which is fine.

As for bigoted... You still haven't answered a very simple question. Why is it less bigoted to blame the culture than it is to blame the religion? The culture is even more geographically and ethnically specific, where as the religion is at least in theory universal and race neutral.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by elphenor

stoning for adultery is actually a great to being up here because it's not mentioned in the Quran at all

people want to stone some mother****ers, so they do, there's even some convoluted reasoning behind it

like I said, it's from the Hadiths. The Quran prescribes 100 lashes.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by jwb

like I said, it's from the Hadiths. The Quran prescribes 100 lashes.

Dem lashes ain’t no joke neither

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by elphenor

I didn't read what you said I'm responding to Lucem

reading these books like they're literal instruction manuals is really awkward, it's not the way people actually practice religion

Aren’t those people called fundamentalists?

[Frownland]

This **** is so stupid.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by elphenor

I didn't read what you said I'm responding to Lucem

reading these books like they're literal instruction manuals is really awkward, it's not the way people actually practice religion

That really depends on the book. Large portions of the Torah, for example, are quite literally just lists of laws and punishments. I dunno how else you would interprete that.

Islam inherits that tradition. It's not just a list of laws just like it's not a continuous historical narrative the way the Torah is
It's a stream of consciousness style text that is embued with an inherent worldview that includes both law and historical narrative without dedicating itself explicitly to recreating what was already established with the Torah. It reinforces that worldview. Which is why the actual law about stoning adulterers originally appeared in the Torah.

It's true most modern Jews don't follow the Torah. They are probably the most secular abrahamic religion out there. They've completely strayed from actual Judaism. They're basically just a cultural/ethnic group at this point.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by elphenor

I wouldn't normally talk universally about the culture of "Arabic" people either, I might talk about Pakistani culture or something

that could depend on context

I can't really think of a context where you're talking about as diverse and massive a group as Muslims as if they're a traditionalist monolith wouldn't be pretty bigoted

talking about Islam in general is not broadbrushing Muslims anymore than talking about Christianity in general is broadbrushing Christians.

You can talk about sexual repression, homophobia, etc as a generic criticism of Christianity. You can even say it's a negative force on the world. People commonly say all of this.

In reality, if we cut through the BS I believe you're basically just worried that any negative statements about Islam, no matter how true, will arm islamaphobia. I'm not unconcerned about that, but I also think they will find their ammo anyway and the fact that leftists are so prone to pay deference to one of the more backwards religions out there out of sheer PC optics is disengenous and more proof that they are correct. That's how bigots usually think.

[Lucem Ferre]

Mien Kampf isn't so bad either, you're just not supposed to take it literally.

[jwb]

Also it occurs to me with regard to broadbrushing.. why is it less bigoted to say there is a problem with Pakistani culture than with Islam? You're just narrowing the scope of your bigotry.

[OccultHawk]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

Mien Kampf isn't so bad either, you're just not supposed to take it literally.

Have you read it?