The Islam Thread

[OccultHawk]

it's really America that's the most toxic force of all

Church

[Lucem Ferre]

And the conservative nature of Christianity and Judaism persist the only difference is we're more secular, less religious, but those that still remain conservative preach the same xenophobia that the conservatives over there preach. The only difference is there was/is more truth to their fears of America than there are to the Christian ones.

America can pretend to be better but what do you think this country would be like if the conservatives terrorizing Portland with guns and black trucks (;D) got their way? And they are pushing people that aren't conservative into supporting them through the same fear mongering.

[Lucem Ferre]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

Both sides are doing that which is great for the pro civil war contingent.

Not really. Nobody has pushed me into supporting Biden out of the fear of Trump. It's literally why Trump would get re-elected.

Originally Posted by SoundgardenRocks

Probably similar to what it's like now considering they want Trump re-elected.

They don't just want Trump re-elected. They want to radically abolish progressive ideas which is why they are trolling around in Portland, a very progressive area.

[jwb]

I'm not saying America is better. There's a lot of similarities between fundamentalist Christians in America and conservative Muslims in the middle east and Europe. I'm just saying America didn't make them conservative. The west did stir up extremist tendencies through colonialism but the Islamic world is inherently conservative to the extent that they insist on sticking to ancient traditions.

[Lucem Ferre]

And I think they'd have stayed on the path of becoming more secular if it weren't for American meddling.

[OccultHawk]

I think you could make a good case that America was instrumental in radicalizing Iran (to the extent they are radicalized - I still think the typical Iranian is pretty mellow they just have a really difficult power structure there)

[jwb]

Originally Posted by OccultHawk

I think you could make a good case that America was instrumental in radicalizing Iran (to the extent they are radicalized - I still think the typical Iranian is pretty mellow they just have a really difficult power structure there)

Yeah I could see the argument for Iran.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

And I think they'd have stayed on the path of becoming more secular if it weren't for American meddling.

Based on what exactly?

[Lucem Ferre]

I'd say based on Iranian activism.

[jwb]

Originally Posted by Lucem Ferre

I'd say based on Iranian activism.

But I mean in terms of the broader trend there is no telling what direction the larger middle east would take without intervention. For example in Egypt the pan-Arab secular regime of Nasser overthrew the colonial govt with the help of the Muslim brotherhood... And later that same secular pan Arab regime became estranged with the MB as their views diverged.

Eventually the MB were intent on overthrowing the secular regime and were considered a terrorist group by the state. This was long before any ties to the US.

This is just to say that religious conservatives will reject modernity whether it's imposed imperially or manifests organically. The imperialism just magnifies the effect. So I agree we probably made things worse by all accounts... I just don't agree with if America didn't intervene they'd be on a streamlined path to secularism.

The diminishing of religion in our own society was a long a bloody ordeal and I don't know why we would expect differently from theirs. And above all else I just get the sense that the common trope of America is to blame for everything is to simplistic and robs the rest of the world of their agency.