Internet censorship and the death of free speech.

Neapolitan · 05-23-2016, 05:17 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I call bull****. The Christian god is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing. So logically, nothing has ever happened, is happening, or will ever happen without God's knowledge and consent. If God couldn't stop it, he wouldn't be all-powerful. If he didn't know about it, he wouldn't be all-knowing.

So, with that in mind, everything you do throughout your life, and everything that makes you who you are (from your personality to your shoe size) was decided before you were ever born. The same would apply to everything to everything from the trajectory and speed of every bouncing ball, to the actions of every human being ever created.

With all of that in mind, since God created everything about you and the world that you would interact with, with complete knowledge of how history would play out, the idea of free will becomes nonsense. It's impossible to deviate in even the slightest way from the plan and vision of a being who is all-powerful and all-knowing, and since God created literally everything, he necessarily did so in a calculated way that decided your future without your being able to do anything about it. You can't even scratch your ass if it isn't a part of God's "plan".

Therefore, every horror perpetrated by man was dictated by God, and we are simply his puppet automatons. Whether or not he physically pressed the button to release the gas to kill the Jews in the showers of Auschwitz, the responsibility is his alone, since his creations are not capable of being responsible for anything whatsoever under any circumstances.

God knew you were going to say that, so God created a universe where human beings could have free will, because that scenario is the kind of world that doesn't make logical sense. A Benevolent God wouldn't force automatons to act malevolently. That defies logic.

You weren't the first person to say that stuff, you're are using your free will to reiterate something someone has said before, albeit in your own words. You could had choose believe that person, or you could have had use your brain to see the flaws in his or her argument before you concur with it on your own volition. You chosen the former.

Chula Vista · 05-23-2016, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadChannel

2) Any imperfection in humanity is ultimately the intentional result of God's actions. Yes, the serpent made eve eat from the tree of knowledge, but God is omnipotent, so he could have totally prevented that. Therefore, by virtue of his omnipotence, evil is still the intentional, fully consenting fault of God.

BANG! *DC drops mic*

DeadChannel · 05-23-2016, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

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God knew you were going to say that, so God created a universe where human beings could have free will, because that scenario is the kind of world that doesn't make logical sense. A Benevolent God wouldn't force automatons to act malevolently. That defies logic.

You weren't the first person to say that stuff, you're are using your free will to reiterate something someone has said before, albeit in your own words. You could had choose believe that person, or you could have had use your brain to see the flaws in his or her argument before you concur with it on your own volition.

Read my last post. There are still issues with using free will to defend against the problem of evil. Regardless of what side of the argument you fall on, the free will defense is not a great one.

Also I love how you're accusing him of just reusing points from other people. Firstly, because there's nothing wrong with that (no need to reinvent the wheel) and secondly: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvi...e_will_defense

kibbeh · 05-23-2016, 05:22 PM

there's no such thing as free will.

DeadChannel · 05-23-2016, 05:26 PM

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Originally Posted by pansy gayboy 69

there's no such thing as free will.

That's a whole nother barrel of monkeys, but I don't necessarily disagree, given that a material universe seems to suggest that (I'm not a physicist don't hurt me).

The Batlord · 05-23-2016, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neapolitan

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God knew you were going to say that, so God created a universe where human beings could have free will, because that scenario is the kind of world that doesn't make logical sense. A Benevolent God wouldn't force automatons to act malevolently. That defies logic.

You weren't the first person to say that stuff, you're are using your free will to reiterate something someone has said before, albeit in your own words. You could had choose believe that person, or you could have had use your brain to see the flaws in his or her argument before you concur with it on your own volition. You chosen the former.

I always figured you were either asexual or a religious fundy. Going with the latter now.

RoxyRollah · 05-23-2016, 05:30 PM

Damnit! Why did God hijack this thread?

DeadChannel · 05-23-2016, 05:32 PM

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Originally Posted by RoxyRollah

Damnit! Why did God hijack this thread?

It wasn't God. He only allowed it to happen to preserve our free will.

William_the_Bloody · 05-23-2016, 05:33 PM

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Originally Posted by pansy gayboy 69

there's no such thing as free will.

So if I abstain from beating off for four days so I can dump a big load into my girlfriend, that's not free will?

Or has that already been pre determined by the reward of abstinence if I refrain? And what happens if I can't control myself and beat off? Is that a result of faulty genetics or a personality fault?

Explain, enquiring minds want to know?

innerspaceboy · 05-23-2016, 05:33 PM

Ah... back from a nice day at work... let's see if that thread's still kicking around...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JGuy Grungeman

Then don't you think it's possible that they were rejecting God's ways? Or at least worshipping him in their own ways instead of the right way? Everyone is human. I think God lifted his protection, and saved them when they cried for help. I mean, it took the Israelites decades to cry out to the lord for help after first being enslaved by the Egyptians, and he sent Moses to save them. If that's the case, it only took the Jews around five years. The cycle goes like this, and is a common theme in the Bible. People rejects God's ways/worship in pagan or incorrect ways. God lifts his protection. The devil comes right in and causes a great pain. People cry for God again. God protects and saves them. And then the cycle continues because mankind is so changeable. I'm no holocaust expert, but I wouldn't doubt that's the case. Even I have different beliefs from some Jewish customs. Not saying the Jews are total sinners, but any religion can be changed. Heck, people leave and join churches because of great changes that happen.

Holy-- did you really say that? Does the same reasoning apply to the scores of other mass genocides committed throughout the ages? Starving and diseased infants in the third world? The casts of Joe Don Baker movies? Are you really making the sweeping generalization that the immeasurable suffering of these millions and millions of individuals of all races, colors, political affiliations, and stages of infancy were mercilessly slaughtered by (or "hands-offed" by) your benevolent invisible friend in the sky? If that's the case he is the most monstrous creature ever to walk on water.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mordwyr

Free will. He could stop whatever whenever however, but that doesn't mean He does. To deny us our free will is to turn us into puppets. He doesn't want puppets.

That's right. He prefers groveling worshipers who do exactly what he wants or else they'll burn eternally. God sounds like a drunken abusive spouse with a torture fetish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadChannel

I've read this, it's a good one.

Are you familiar with Bakunin's God and the State? You might not agree with the state part, but imo he makes a pretty compelling argument as to why the idea that god is necessary for human dignity is bunk. He actually argues the opposite: that if God exists he is everything, and humanity is necessariy nothing.

It's a good read, and one that has been unfortunately basically left out of the current atheist cannon because of its association with anarchism.

Adding it to my list. And I love me some anarchism. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

One of my favorite quotes. Pass this one along to a hard core Christian and then sit back and watch their head start spinning.

Hey, ISB, did you ever get around to reading that Karen Armstrong book I told you about?

Dude knew his stuff. To this day I've never come across a satisfactory rebuttal to this elegantly simple question.

I haven't - ANOTHER for my reading list!

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I simply ask what is more reasonable/plausible - the extraordinary claim that Jebus is god's only begotten son, and that the Bible is the divine inspired word of god, (or crazier still - a guide for moral compass)... or that this defining text overwhelmingly composed of contradictory statements and horrors of a vengeful, vindictive god is just the most recent in a long line of well-documented and nearly-identical fairy tales written to keep the masses in check?

Sure - let's take it as read that Jesus really existed. Let's go a step further and say that he was god made flesh, and that he really appeared and performed magic tricks like all the other saviors before him, conveniently to a bunch of desert-dwellers who had little to no evidentiary documentation. Let's say that all of the other alarmingly similar stories mankind has told throughout the ages, each based on astrological circumstances which marked key events like seasonal change, etc and which correlate EXACTLY with each of these supernatural fairy tales, Jesus included - let's call all of that part of God's bizarre and needlessly complicated plan. Let's write off his waste of 99.9 percent of all species and civilizations which came and went for 98% of our existence and just say God is sh*t at math. And let's even call the Bible the divine inspired (though entirely contradictory) word of the big guy. All that rape and slavery and misogyny and anti-homosexuality and "kill your son Abraham-- HAHA Just kidding!!" ... all that stuff.

So we'll call him real. He's up there, sitting on a cloud, mysteriously revealing himself exclusively to individuals of questionable mental health and appearing in various pieces of cheese and toast.

Given the innumerable atrocities he's committed directly and indirectly and the demonstrably sh*tty job he's done creating a universe... why the smeg would we worship the jackass? If the dude is real, then given his track record we mortals seriously should band together and come up with a way to off the guy. (Check out Asimov's short stories The Last Question and The Last Answer for a great example of this playing out.)

Peace and Love.

05-23-2016, 05:22 PM	#234 (permalink)
kibbeh kibbeh Join Date: May 2016 Location: nowhere Posts: 648	there's no such thing as free will.