Brexit? Yay or Nay.

**Goofle** · 07-01-2016, 04:42 AM

Based God.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-01-2016, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

3. You have guaranteed another Scottish Referendum in the near future, and if they can join the EU they will vote to separate, Northern Ireland will vote for reunification and England and Whales will most likely in the end get sucked back into the EU as smaller irrelevant countries.

What makes you so sure they will?

If there is even an announcement of a referendum I am certain you will see a lot of trouble over there again.

**Janszoon** · 07-01-2016, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

I don't even need to look up stats for that one, I can just point to the sky high sexual assaults in Germany, Sweden, England, Denmark, or the new reality of many of the Islamist based terrorist attacks in Europe that are becoming commonplace.

I think you do need to look up the stats if you're going make claims like that.

**Frownland** · 07-01-2016, 06:46 AM

Multiculturalism sprouts no unique problems from monoculturalism. People just have a knack for being ****y. Don't confuse the issue.

Also I've lived in LA, which is one of the most diverse places in the world, and I've had little problem with the scary "others".

EDIT: I'll note that I agree on assimilating to a conventional culture for immigrants, but I think that we already accomplish that through laws (ideally). Think it's okay to molest somebody? We have a law for that. Want to kill someone for their beliefs? We have a law for that. Enforcement is occasionally an issue but that problem lies with the police force and government, not multiculturalism itself.

grindy · 07-01-2016, 09:45 AM

As someone who knows the issues intimately (due to being an immigrant myself) I wholeheartedly agree with William. Multiculturalism, at least the totalitarian multiculturalism that's so popular today, is a ridiculous and harmful ideology.

**Frownland** · 07-01-2016, 10:34 AM

There's definitely room for multiculturalism to reach absurdity, but I still stand by the idea that enforcing laws that reflect parts of one culture that would be harmful to not follow (such as prohibiting murder, freedom of assembly, women's rights, etc.) curbs any realistic negative effects of more than one culture being in the same place. Thinking that anything that's on such a large abstract scale as multiculturalism is going to run smoothly and without issue is most certainly Utopian, but that doesn't take away from the central concept of whatever you're being naive about.

grindy · 07-01-2016, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

There's definitely room for multiculturalism to reach absurdity, but I still stand by the idea that enforcing laws that reflect parts of one culture that would be harmful to not follow (such as prohibiting murder, freedom of assembly, women's rights, etc.) curbs any realistic negative effects of more than one culture being in the same place. Thinking that anything that's on such a large abstract scale as multiculturalism is going to run smoothly and without issue is most certainly Utopian, but that doesn't take away from the central concept of whatever you're being naive about.

I don't quite get this sentence.

Lisnaholic · 07-01-2016, 10:46 AM

All very fine to debate multiculturalism, but it's not very useful to do so in a statistical vacuum, because so much depends on employment figures, availability of housing and population density. Britain has been a pretty successful multi-cultural country for generations; if everyone has a job, a place to live and food on their plate, then multiculturalism can work. IMO the problems start when there aren't enough resources to go around; when your plate is empty but your ethnically-different neighbour is eating well, then multiculturalism starts to disintegrate. IMO this is what's happening in Britain; resources are being uncomfortably stretched, and people are begining to squabble.

And the most significant resource is land. The average population density of the world is 50 people per square kilometre. The British population is over 300/sq.km. Only a few countries, like India and Japan have higher figures. One immediate effect of this kind of density is to drives property price off the scale; today in Britain, for example, young married couples can't afford to buy houses.

To me the issue is all about the numbers. Britain already has a multicultural society; we don't need to prove anything to the world by absorbing immigrants in ever greater numbers. As one of the most densly populated countries in the world, I think we are entitled to say, "Let someone else soak up the excess of refugees and immigrants." Candidates might be the Gulf States or the USA, who both have a population density below the world average, see map:-

Spoiler for world population density map:

**Frownland** · 07-01-2016, 10:48 AM

@grindy The only assimilation that immigrants should be required to go through is understanding and obeying the law, since the law draws the line where disagreeing with one culture's values is unacceptable. Sorry, writing and editing sentences on a cell whilst a little dehydrated makes for some interesting phrasing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisnaholic

All very fine to debate multiculturalism, but it's not very useful to do so in a statistical vacuum, because so much depends on employment figures, availability of housing and population density. Britain has been a pretty successful multi-cultural country for generations; if everyone has a job, a place to live and food on their plate, then multiculturalism can work. IMO the problems start when there aren't enough resources to go around; when your plate is empty but your ethnically-different neighbour is eating well, then multiculturalism starts to disintegrate. IMO this is what's happening in Britain; resources are being uncomfortably stretched, and people are begining to squabble.

And the most significant resource is land. The average population density of the world is 50 people per square kilometre. The British population is over 300/sq.km. Only a few countries, like India and Japan have higher figures. One immediate effect of this kind of density is to drives property price off the scale; today in Britain, for example, young married couples can't afford to buy houses.

To me the issue is all about the numbers. Britain already has a multicultural society; we don't need to prove anything to the world by absorbing immigrants in ever greater numbers. As one of the most densly populated countries in the world, I think we are entitled to say, "Let someone else soak up the excess of refugees and immigrants." Candidates might be the Gulf States or the USA, who both have a population density below the world average, see map:-

Spoiler for world population density map:

I'm starting to get closer and closer to Bill Burr's ideology that maybe a mass genocide wouldn't be all bad.

grindy · 07-01-2016, 11:02 AM

But there are pretty big problems with immigrants who don't obey the law. And while the reasons are complex and economic factors certainly play a huge role, culture is a big factor as well. And if you don't learn the language of your host country, are opposed to its culture, live in a parallel culture and therefore don't integrate at all, your economic situation will obviously suck, therefore leading to more immigrant crime as well.
Until we as a society are able to see that problem and implement measures against it, without resorting to ridiculous right-wing xenophobia of course, multi-culturalism won't really work.

07-01-2016, 06:46 AM	#384 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Multiculturalism sprouts no unique problems from monoculturalism. People just have a knack for being ***y. Don't confuse the issue. Also I've lived in LA, which is one of the most diverse places in the world, and I've had little problem with the scary "others". EDIT: I'll note that I agree on assimilating to a conventional culture for immigrants, but I think that we already accomplish that through laws (ideally). Think it's okay to molest somebody? We have a law for that. Want to kill someone for their beliefs? We have a law for that. Enforcement is occasionally an issue but that problem lies with the police force and government, not multiculturalism itself. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.* d e a f b o x

07-01-2016, 09:45 AM	#385 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	As someone who knows the issues intimately (due to being an immigrant myself) I wholeheartedly agree with William. Multiculturalism, at least the totalitarian multiculturalism that's so popular today, is a ridiculous and harmful ideology. __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*

07-01-2016, 10:34 AM	#386 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	There's definitely room for multiculturalism to reach absurdity, but I still stand by the idea that enforcing laws that reflect parts of one culture that would be harmful to not follow (such as prohibiting murder, freedom of assembly, women's rights, etc.) curbs any realistic negative effects of more than one culture being in the same place. Thinking that anything that's on such a large abstract scale as multiculturalism is going to run smoothly and without issue is most certainly Utopian, but that doesn't take away from the central concept of whatever you're being naive about. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

07-01-2016, 10:46 AM	#388 (permalink)
Lisnaholic ...here to hear... Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: He lives on Love Street Posts: 4,444	All very fine to debate multiculturalism, but it's not very useful to do so in a statistical vacuum, because so much depends on employment figures, availability of housing and population density. Britain has been a pretty successful multi-cultural country for generations; if everyone has a job, a place to live and food on their plate, then multiculturalism can work. IMO the problems start when there aren't enough resources to go around; when your plate is empty but your ethnically-different neighbour is eating well, then multiculturalism starts to disintegrate. IMO this is what's happening in Britain; resources are being uncomfortably stretched, and people are begining to squabble. And the most significant resource is land. The average population density of the world is 50 people per square kilometre. The British population is over 300/sq.km. Only a few countries, like India and Japan have higher figures. One immediate effect of this kind of density is to drives property price off the scale; today in Britain, for example, young married couples can't afford to buy houses. To me the issue is all about the numbers. Britain already has a multicultural society; we don't need to prove anything to the world by absorbing immigrants in ever greater numbers. As one of the most densly populated countries in the world, I think we are entitled to say, "Let someone else soak up the excess of refugees and immigrants." Candidates might be the Gulf States or the USA, who both have a population density below the world average, see map:- Spoiler for world population density map: __________________ "Am I enjoying this moment? I know of it and perhaps that is enough." - Sybille Bedford, 1953

07-01-2016, 11:02 AM	#390 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	But there are pretty big problems with immigrants who don't obey the law. And while the reasons are complex and economic factors certainly play a huge role, culture is a big factor as well. And if you don't learn the language of your host country, are opposed to its culture, live in a parallel culture and therefore don't integrate at all, your economic situation will obviously suck, therefore leading to more immigrant crime as well. Until we as a society are able to see that problem and implement measures against it, without resorting to ridiculous right-wing xenophobia of course, multi-culturalism won't really work. __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*