Bernie Sanders vs Donald Trump

Two Spirit · 08-25-2015, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

Clearly Sanders. He's not a socialist in any strong sense either, although I am. Electing a Republican would be disaster - it probably means four reactionary SCOTUS appointments and a war with Iran, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I actually think Trump would be a better President than most of his primary opponents, just because he'd be too incompetent to actually get the stuff he wants.

I think Trump's controversial statements are a distraction - it doesn't make sense to care more that he said something nasty about Megyn Kelly than you care that he wants to take necessary anti-poverty programs away from the people who need them, or that he wants to deport millions and millions of people, or whatever. Not sure what it matters that he "has an opinion" on immigration if that opinion is terrible, but I'd love to hear your actual argument in favor of his position instead of just a bunch of no-content statements which it's impossible to respond to.

ETA: Also, those controversial statements are a totally calculated move on his part - he knows people like you will be like "Oh he's standing up to the Democrats," and then when people get mad he gets to complain about political correctness, which just helps him with the base more. He knows what he needs to do to win a primary - although he's not going to.

I've never been a big fan of illegal immigration and how a lot of people in this country seem to just excuse it as if it's no big deal, and that anyone who says anything against it must be a raging racist bigot.

I'm actually not much of a conservative, but illegal immigration is the one issue where I think the Left completely gets it wrong. It's so obvious that crossing the borders without the correct papers and documentation is wrong, that I honestly can't fathom why people would defend it and try to give illegal immigrants access to the same benefits that legal American citizens get.

Josef K · 08-25-2015, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Spirit

It's so obvious that crossing the borders without the correct papers and documentation is wrong

Why?

Two Spirit · 08-25-2015, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

Why?

Because it's illegal.

Josef K · 08-25-2015, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Spirit

Because it's illegal.

Lots of things are illegal but that doesn't make them all wrong. If "Americans" deserve access to certain services, don't all people deserve access to those services?

Two Spirit · 08-25-2015, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

Lots of things are illegal but that doesn't make them all wrong. If "Americans" deserve access to certain services, don't all people deserve access to those services?

Of course something being illegal doesn't automatically make it morally wrong, but in the case of immigration, it's still something that nations have the right to enforce. We can't disregard all laws because some people feel it shouldn't be illegal. It has to be looked at in a case by case basis.

As for services, I disagree. Legal citizens pay a certain percentage of their taxes to fund those programs, so those programs should only go towards helping legal citizens. Now, of course, there are legal Americans that lose their job or have to go on unemployment so they can't always contribute, but that's why we have those systems in place, so that we can take care of our own. A person that doesn't even respect our borders shouldn't get to take advantage of the social programs that are designed to help native born citizens, let alone have politicians on both the left and the right that are willing to sell the working class out to illegal immigrants that can be paid a non-living wage, which helps to undermine the low income class even further.

Josef K · 08-25-2015, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Spirit

Of course something being illegal doesn't automatically make it morally wrong, but in the case of immigration, it's still something that nations have the right to enforce. We can't disregard all laws because some people feel it shouldn't be illegal. It has to be looked at in a case by case basis.

Okay? When your entire justification for something being wrong is that it's illegal, it's totally justified for me to say that that doesn't make it wrong.

Quote:

As for services, I disagree. Legal citizens pay a certain percentage of their taxes to fund those programs, so those programs should only go towards helping legal citizens. Now, of course, there are legal Americans that lose their job or have to go on unemployment so they can't always contribute, but that's why we have those systems in place, so that we can take care of our own. A person that doesn't even respect our borders shouldn't get to take advantage of the social programs that are designed to help native born citizens.

Okay, sure. That's why having a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants is a good thing - because as more people come in, they will end up paying taxes to fund the programs we're talking about. But it doesn't even matter, because undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for these public services thanks to the 1996 welfare reform law - they can use a couple things, but not Medicare, Medicaid (except in emergencies), SSI, CHIP, TANF... almost anything you think of as a welfare/public assistance program the government provides is something that undocumented immigrants cannot access. In fact, even "legal" immigrants have to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops before they can access these programs as well.

Regardless, I would argue that all people are entitled to certain things, such as healthcare, a job, and a basic income. At the point where you're ready to deny people things they can barely live without just because they were not born in America, I don't really have anything to say to you.

Two Spirit · 08-25-2015, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

Regardless, I would argue that all people are entitled to certain things, such as healthcare, a job, and a basic income. At the point where you're ready to deny people things they can barely live without just because they were not born in America, I don't really have anything to say to you.

All of this comes down to one question. Why couldn't they have come here legally in the first place? They willingly broke the law by coming here illegally, and people that have a problem with that are labeled the bad guys because they don't want to reward illegal behavior.

I do think we should make the immigration process a hell of a lot easier to perform legally, but supporting amnesty measures just doesn't seem right, because it's essentially saying, "You came here illegally, but oh well, since you're already here, we'll give you an SS number, driver's license, etc, because if we don't, we'll look like *******s." Imagine if a store clerk held the same attitude towards a burglar that came onto his property.

It's a tough position to be in, wanting to enforce the law while not looking like an ******* doing it.

William_the_Bloody · 08-25-2015, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

Okay? When your entire justification for something being wrong is that it's illegal, it's totally justified for me to say that that doesn't make it wrong.

Okay, sure. That's why having a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants is a good thing - because as more people come in, they will end up paying taxes to fund the programs we're talking about. But it doesn't even matter, because undocumented immigrants aren't eligible for these public services thanks to the 1996 welfare reform law - they can use a couple things, but not Medicare, Medicaid (except in emergencies), SSI, CHIP, TANF... almost anything you think of as a welfare/public assistance program the government provides is something that undocumented immigrants cannot access. In fact, even "legal" immigrants have to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops before they can access these programs as well.

Regardless, I would argue that all people are entitled to certain things, such as healthcare, a job, and a basic income. At the point where you're ready to deny people things they can barely live without just because they were not born in America, I don't really have anything to say to you.

You do realize that illegal immigration costs American taxpayers 113 billion largely as a result of paid social services?

The cost for California alone is 25 billion, placing undue & unsustainable strain on the welfare state that was already teetering near bankruptcy. You do realize this?

You do realize that illegal immigration & mass immigration puts a downward pressure on the wages of unskilled labour? (Reducing the wage of native labours 99 to 118 billion per year)

You do realize that once an ethnic voting bloc that continually cites immigration as major issue on how they choose to vote, can determine the outcome of an election, than it becomes extremely hard to control your border policy.

You do realize all of this?

Did you grow up in a comfortable middle class household? Just curious?

Trollheart · 10-22-2017, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

bring this guy back

I didn't know this board once had good posters

It didn't.

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