confederate flag debate

**Frownland** · 07-28-2015, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

yes flags/symbols matter

I agree that it's a double standard to a degree. I'd say that since Hitler instituted the Swastika flag and Emperor Meiji instituted the Japanese flag before Emperor Shōwa, who was leading during the Rape of Nanking, that the Nazi flag far more closely represented Hitler's actions than the Japanese flag does Shōwa's. The fact that the Japanese flag has 50+ years on Hitler's was likely also a big deciding factor in the US government's decision to keep it.

DwnWthVwls · 07-29-2015, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xurtio

If we had clear evidence that banning the confederate flag would reduce hate crimes, then the directive would be clear wouldn't it?

No. Flat out banning something or ignoring the problem will most likely lead to other problems. That is a short term patch and I like long term solutions, unless something is so urgent that the long term will not exist without an immediate bandaid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xurtio

The rational answer is a question: how much safety? How much free speech? And each person has a different threshold for how much freedom they'll give up for safety

I think this part is reasonable. We just have different thresholds, mine being much higher (I assume).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

would it be less or more ignorant to proudly wear a swastika and say "well actually in greco roman times it means prosperity for all" when called out for being a douche?

I think it's about the same. You still have to acknowledge and be considerate of how your actions will affect those around you because we live in a community and we should all do our part to help maintain peace and structure. The problem is a lack of education, I'd put money on the fact that a large majority of the population that hates swastikas has no idea of it's meaning outside of the nazi regime, and that is an education problem creating a social problem.

Ninetales · 07-29-2015, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I think it's about the same. You still have to acknowledge and be considerate of how your actions will affect those around you because we live in a community and we should all do our part to help maintain peace and structure. The problem is a lack of education, I'd put money on the fact that a large majority of the population that hates swastikas has no idea of it's meaning outside of the nazi regime, and that is an education problem creating a social problem.

so you want to teach the history and etymology of everything? for what? to prove the swastika used to mean not murdering millions of people? the word faggot used to mean a bunch of sticks. meanings change. using it as a slur now isn't ignorance of the past. ya cool the swastika used to represent something positive but it doesn't anymore. sorry not buying that this is an "education problem".

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 07-29-2015, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

so you want to teach the history and etymology of everything? for what? to prove the swastika used to mean not murdering millions of people? the word faggot used to mean a bunch of sticks. meanings change. using it as a slur now isn't ignorance of the past. ya cool the swastika used to represent something positive but it doesn't anymore. sorry not buying that this is an "education problem".

actually that's not quite true

it still means something positive in certain contexts

also the idea that banning the confed flag is gonna reduce hate crimes is straight up laughable

DwnWthVwls · 07-29-2015, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninetales

so you want to teach the history and etymology of everything? for what? to prove the swastika used to mean not murdering millions of people? the word faggot used to mean a bunch of sticks. meanings change. using it as a slur now isn't ignorance of the past. ya cool the swastika used to represent something positive but it doesn't anymore. sorry not buying that this is an "education problem".

No, but I think for something as profound as the swastika it's important. Lack of education is a huge problem. Ignore the swastikas, how many people think Christopher Columbus is some amazing person? We have a day celebrating someone who is arguably comparable to Hitler just because he "discovered" America. History is taught in such a disgusting pick and choose fashion, I don't see how you think education isn't part of the problem.

Xurtio · 07-30-2015, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

No. Flat out banning something or ignoring the problem will most likely lead to other problems. That is a short term patch and I like long term solutions, unless something is so urgent that the long term will not exist without an immediate bandaid.

I think this part is reasonable. We just have different thresholds, mine being much higher (I assume).

I think it's about the same. You still have to acknowledge and be considerate of how your actions will affect those around you because we live in a community and we should all do our part to help maintain peace and structure. The problem is a lack of education, I'd put money on the fact that a large majority of the population that hates swastikas has no idea of it's meaning outside of the nazi regime, and that is an education problem creating a social problem.

The presumption is that by banning it, you get a long term solution (with authoritative support, comes more widespread support. People that were afraid to stand up or were on the fence or were obedient citizens will now be able to). You pull the rug out from everybody all at once and you'll have unrest (I. E. Prohibition) but when it's a minority that are the issue, the demonstration of government support can bolster public support (such as in marriage equality and LGBT rights in general, where a significant portion of the population already supported it. In fact, Obama did not support marriage equality vocally until 51% of the US did and it's snowballed since then).

Anecdotally, the supreme court decision brought a lot of neutral people on my Facebook feed out to support the movement. I see a lot of my friends that were homophobic in high school being supportive now on online media. It was Alaska, a rural red state; I was raised homophobic too. Not by my parents, they were neutral, but by the rest of my redneck community.