confederate flag debate

Wpnfire · 07-28-2015, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie

They're just flags though, ain't they.

Meaning is not subjective.

Xurtio · 07-28-2015, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wpnfire

Meaning is not subjective.

I would argue that meaning is quite subjective (as the history of the swastika demonstrates).

Rather, the argument should be that a large population of people with a common subjective meaning is not meek force in society. Ultimately, subjectivity should not be trivialized, since it underlies human motivation.

Wpnfire · 07-28-2015, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xurtio

I would argue that meaning is quite subjective (as the history of the swastika demonstrates).

Rather, the argument should be that a large population of people with a common subjective meaning is not meek force in society. Ultimately, subjectivity should not be trivialized, since it underlies human motivation.

This conversation is pointless. A presupposition of my worldview is that there is intrinsic meaning in the world. When somebody creates something, they assign meaning to it. That's just the way it is to me. Nothing will change my opinion on that, and nothing ever will.

**Frownland** · 07-28-2015, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wpnfire

This conversation is pointless. A presupposition of my worldview is that there is intrinsic meaning in the world. When somebody creates something, they assign meaning to it. That's just the way it is to me. Nothing will change my opinion on that, and nothing ever will.

Have you seen Eraserhead or The Color of Pomegranites? Several different meanings can be derived from those.

Xurtio · 07-28-2015, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wpnfire

This conversation is pointless. A presupposition of my worldview is that there is intrinsic meaning in the world. When somebody creates something, they assign meaning to it. That's just the way it is to me. Nothing will change my opinion on that, and nothing ever will.

I'm not sure what you're saying. These two ideas seem to be contradictory. Do you think meaning is intrinsic or is it assigned arbitrarily by humans?

Piaget talked about world views and accommodation vs. assimilation. Interesting topic; I think it limits your ability to learn new things if you only assimilate (fit new information to your established world view) rather than accommodate (update your world view with new information).

Xurtio · 07-28-2015, 06:48 AM

I thought Japan's flag was the same they'd been using pre-war that represented so much more than just their actions during WW II, whereas the Nazi flag only flew during the Third Reich.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 07-28-2015, 07:08 AM

technically the nazi flag was pre ww2 as well, as was the nazi regime. and it drew on nationalist symbolism from the previous long standing german empire that ended in ww1. the japanese flag was adopted by the same modern japanese regime that saw it as their imperial destiny to conquer asia, and was a symbol of japan's rising dominance in that region, as well as a throwback to older japanese nationalist and mythological sentiments.

Wpnfire · 07-28-2015, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

technically the nazi flag was pre ww2 as well, as was the nazi regime. and it drew on nationalist symbolism from the previous long standing german empire that ended in ww1. the japanese flag was adopted by the same modern japanese regime that saw it as their imperial destiny to conquer asia, and was a symbol of japan's rising dominance in that region, as well as a throwback to older japanese nationalist and mythological sentiments.

... And the use of the swastika on the flag predates any country's flag. If I remember my world history correctly, the Romans used the swastika, right? That was their whole gimmick: 'We're just as powerful as Rome, or at least, we will be soon.'

Mr. Charlie · 07-28-2015, 10:25 AM

I suspect Wpnfire was being sarcastic as meaning is entirely subjective.

With regards to flags serving as symbols, yes, that's true. But symbols ain't real. Two people see the same Swastika, one has knowledge of Nazism, one doesn't, to one it's a symbol, to the other it's only an image. Symbols cannot exist outside the mind. We choose, willingly or not, to give them power. If we empty our heads of pre-conceptions and associations, then an image is just an image, and we don't confuse harmless flags with heinous acts.

**Frownland** · 07-28-2015, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie

I suspect Wpnfire was being sarcastic as meaning is entirely subjective.

With regards to flags serving as symbols, yes, that's true. But symbols ain't real. Two people see the same Swastika, one has knowledge of Nazism, one doesn't, to one it's a symbol, to the other it's only an image. Symbols cannot exist outside the mind. We choose, willingly or not, to give them power. If we empty our heads of pre-conceptions and associations, then an image is just an image, and we don't confuse harmless flags with heinous acts.

I'll stick to my preconceptions about symbols like the ones you used to communicate your thoughts. Your concept is a little bit idealistic.

07-28-2015, 06:48 AM	#6 (permalink)
Xurtio Brain Licker Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 1,083	I thought Japan's flag was the same they'd been using pre-war that represented so much more than just their actions during WW II, whereas the Nazi flag only flew during the Third Reich. __________________ H̓̇̅̉yͤ͏mͬ͂ͧn͑̽̽̌ͪ̑͐͟o̴͊̈́͑̇m͛͌̓ͦ̑aͫ̽ͤ̇n̅̎͐̒ͫ͐c̆ͯͫ̋ ̔̃́eͯ͒rͬͬ̄҉

07-28-2015, 07:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	technically the nazi flag was pre ww2 as well, as was the nazi regime. and it drew on nationalist symbolism from the previous long standing german empire that ended in ww1. the japanese flag was adopted by the same modern japanese regime that saw it as their imperial destiny to conquer asia, and was a symbol of japan's rising dominance in that region, as well as a throwback to older japanese nationalist and mythological sentiments.

07-28-2015, 10:25 AM	#9 (permalink)
Mr. Charlie Shoo Thoughts Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: These Mountains Posts: 2,308	I suspect Wpnfire was being sarcastic as meaning is entirely subjective. With regards to flags serving as symbols, yes, that's true. But symbols ain't real. Two people see the same Swastika, one has knowledge of Nazism, one doesn't, to one it's a symbol, to the other it's only an image. Symbols cannot exist outside the mind. We choose, willingly or not, to give them power. If we empty our heads of pre-conceptions and associations, then an image is just an image, and we don't confuse harmless flags with heinous acts.