donald trump 4 prez

chopinisawesome · 12-29-2015, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Where would be the right place to look for...I'm not sure exactly what you think we're looking for actually. I thought we were talking about cognitive functions, but apparently the brain is not the correct place to look for that? Or are you suggesting that we just do all of the mental gymnastics that we can to support our predetermined opinion?

Sorry if that was unclear. What I mean is, when a zygote is formed, there are several cells, but there are no separate organs yet. All cells do all life functions. When the human is full-grown, different cells will have different jobs, but as a zygote, the cells all do everything. At that point, there is no distinct brain, no obvious brain activity, so we have no way to know for sure whether or not it is self-aware and conscious. When you grow, the brain activity becomes more obvious.

**Frownland** · 12-29-2015, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopinisawesome

Sorry if that was unclear. What I mean is, when a zygote is formed, there are several cells, but there are no separate organs yet. All cells do all life functions. When the human is full-grown, different cells will have different jobs, but as a zygote, the cells all do everything. At that point, there is no distinct brain, no obvious brain activity, so we have no way to know for sure whether or not it is self-aware and conscious. When you grow, the brain activity becomes more obvious.

We know for sure because the brain is responsible for those functions. You seem to be suggesting that brain activity can exist outside of a brain, which is as silly as saying that skin cells on your arm are just as capable of tasting as your tongue is.

Also, nice work using science to justify your opinion before going out and casting doubt on science

.

chopinisawesome · 12-29-2015, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Then what about life makes it worth protecting? A flat worm is basically just a primitive nerve system with muscles (so far as I know). Should a flat worm be protected in the same way as a human being? Is it just human DNA that should be protected? If so then I refer you to my previous post and human skin cells, sperm, eggs, etc.

You have to have a criteria for what does and does not bear legal protection, unless you want to admit that a human soul is what you're really talking about.

If flatworms were conscious beings, we would probably be seeing somewhat advanced flatworm colonies or something. It seems pretty clear that they are not conscious beings. They work by instinct. However, humans are pretty clearly conscious.

But in general, this discussion is going nowhere for either side. I'm sick of it; it's stupid. Bye.

grindy · 12-29-2015, 03:26 PM

So you choose to abort something you feel you have been forced into and see no bright future for?

**Frownland** · 12-29-2015, 03:29 PM

The Batlord · 12-29-2015, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopinisawesome

Sorry if that was unclear. What I mean is, when a zygote is formed, there are several cells, but there are no separate organs yet. All cells do all life functions. When the human is full-grown, different cells will have different jobs, but as a zygote, the cells all do everything. At that point, there is no distinct brain, no obvious brain activity, so we have no way to know for sure whether or not it is self-aware and conscious. When you grow, the brain activity becomes more obvious.

Again. A flat worm. It conforms to the scientific definition of life, in a way that a zygote and fetus do not, but does not have any form of consciousness that conforms to our meaning of the word, and yet I don't hear you saying that we should protect them legally.

Wikipedia - Scientific Definition of Life

The Batlord · 12-29-2015, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopinisawesome

If flatworms were conscious beings, we would probably be seeing somewhat advanced flatworm colonies or something. It seems pretty clear that they are not conscious beings. They work by instinct. However, humans are pretty clearly conscious.

But in general, this discussion is going nowhere for either side. I'm sick of it; it's stupid. Bye.

As opposed to zygotes and fetuses? And babies for that matter. What baby colonies have you ever seen that have not been organized by adults (f.ex. daycare)?

Xurtio · 12-31-2015, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopinisawesome

If flatworms were conscious beings, we would probably be seeing somewhat advanced flatworm colonies or something. It seems pretty clear that they are not conscious beings. They work by instinct. However, humans are pretty clearly conscious

That is a very limited way to assess consciousness. There's no guarantee that intelligence and consciousness are linked.

The reasons human are so clearly conscious is not because they are intelligent social creatures, but because you happen to be one and you're conscious... And you have brain structures dedicated to analyzing the mental state of humans so its kind of an assumption our brains operate in as social creatures. There is really no good argument for other humans having consciousness besides you. You have no way to objectively measure it. You can only infer that other humans might be like you on the inside.

Chula Vista · 12-31-2015, 01:08 AM

Born May 1960. Have absolutely zero memories until November 1963.

**** if I was conscience while still hibernating in embryonic fluid inside of a belly.

The whole pro life argument has nothing to do with the baby. It's all about the bull**** bible morals of the person doing the pro-life arguing IMO.

Yet they will condone the shooting of an fully realized adult abortion clinic worker.

The Batlord · 12-31-2015, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Born May 1960. Have absolutely zero memories until November 1963.

**** if I was conscience while still hibernating in embryonic fluid inside of a belly.

The whole pro life argument has nothing to do with the baby. It's all about the bull**** bible morals of the person doing the pro-life arguing IMO.

Yet they will condone the shooting of an fully realized adult abortion clinic worker.

There's an argument to be made that a baby is logically less worthwhile than an adult. A dog is more mentally and emotionally developed than a baby, and yet we don't grant them the same protections. Any criterion we might use to determine the "value" of a living organism is going to leave babies falling short. The only reasons we do value them as much or more than adults are parental instincts and a general instinct to perpetuate the human race.

Not that this is a logical position I care to take, but it's still a fun thought experiment.

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12-29-2015, 03:26 PM	#704 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	So you choose to abort something you feel you have been forced into and see no bright future for? __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*

12-29-2015, 03:29 PM	#705 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	__________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x

12-31-2015, 01:08 AM	#709 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	Born May 1960. Have absolutely zero memories until November 1963. ** if I was conscience while still hibernating in embryonic fluid inside of a belly. The whole pro life argument has nothing to do with the baby. It's all about the bull** bible morals of the person doing the pro-life arguing IMO. Yet they will condone the shooting of an fully realized adult abortion clinic worker. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”