Goofle

I think a large part of the problem/backlash in regards to this specific immigration issue is less about "culture" (in a broad sense), and more specifically about the religious ideals that many of the immigrants share.

Islam in it's most literal form doesn't sit well with commonly held western values and culture so I'm guessing a large number of those protesting are essentially fearful of what could happen as a result of it. I'm not stupid enough to think that a few thousand immigrants will turn these countries into Islamist states, just explaining why there may be more to the reaction than fear of another nationality of people.

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John Wilkes Booth

well when i say culture i include religion as an aspect of that.

but i do think immigration can lead to problems without the religious concern. the problems arise when you get competing cultures within a single society rather than compatible sub-cultures of a larger shared culture.

this form of multiculturalism is really based on the american social experiment and the idea has always been one of a "melting pot."

like george friedman from the strafor poltiical think tank made the point about the difference between mexican immigration into the southwest united states and say italian immigration to america 100 years ago. the key difference is that the southwest states represent a 'borderland' which is an area which has cultural ties to both mexico and the united states... and have at one time been part of mexico and are now a part of the united states. so this presents a unique dynamic with regard to assimilation vs the assimilation of italian immigrants within a few generations. the italians left their homeland behind so assimilation was vital. they still maintained some aspects of their culture. you can see it to this day in parts of jersey/ny etc. but the american italian culture is an american culture... it is not the same as the culture that exists in italy today.

with mexico... it's a lot more blurry. because a lot of these areas have close cultural ties to mexico and large mexican populations. so continuing to import mexicans on a mass scale to these areas won't lead to them assimilating in a few generations, the way the european immigrants did. it will just make the areas you import them to a lot more mexican.

Unknown Soldier

What are you on about! You make this sound like a planet of the apes scenario. The only competing cultures are usually the cultures at the bottom of line, coming into conflict with the new wave of immigrants moving into their neighbourhood and nicking their jobs.

Maybe they should make the pot of sterner material then.

The first sensible post you've made in this thread.

I can tell you that a lot of the so called Mexicans that cross into the USA are not actually Mexicans, but Latins from other countries that pass through Mexico in waves to try and get into the USA, Those that don't end up staying in Mexico and those that do just try and assimilate wherever they can.

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John Wilkes Booth

just googled and found this

Why Syrian Refugees in Turkey Are Leaving for Europe | The Nation

case in point. it's hard enough for these refugees to assimilate into turkey, their muslim next door neighbors due to ethnic tensions. that only makes the prospect of europe or america taking on the burden even more dismal.

The Batlord

Well, according to that article the Turks are actively rejecting Arabs and Arab influences, whereas we are just kind of ambivalent. Sounds like they'd fair better here than there.

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John Wilkes Booth

the turkish people are expressing nationalist sentiments. their govt is letting the refugees in. very similar to the situation in germany, for example.

The Batlord

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your entire argument, just your "Muslim countries should take in the Syrian refugees" one. Your own source revealed that one of those countries, which you specifically cited, may actually an undesirable place for them to emigrate. The fact that your own source kind of disproved your Turkish argument reveals you to be (understandably) ignorant of the facts of the region, and for all we know there could be different reasons why even a religiously conservative Muslim wouldn't be welcome in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

All I'm saying is that if you don't know what's actually going on, then maybe you shouldn't be putting forth a solution.

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John Wilkes Booth

well my most basic position is that it is irresponsible to import a lot of people into a country without any regard for the demographics or the cultures involved

so as such i started my argument with the question of why don't muslim countries take the refugees because it seems as if there is a foregone conclusion that someone has to take them. so i was saying if anyone is going to do so, the first in line should be those who are closest to the syrians culturally and geographically.

i was ignorant of the fact that the turks had taken in such a large amount, though i was not ignorant of the reasons why massive amounts of refugees will cause problems. my prediction was that ethnic and cultural differences will be the source of the tension. this was true in turkey. so the situation in turkey basically played out the way i said it would in europe, for the very reason that i said it would in europe. in fact believe i made the point early on that saudi arabia and turkey would be smart for not taking in the refugees, when i was arguing with frownland. so the article did not "disprove the turkish argument" it just put it to the test.

now, you point out that the turks are being hostile so maybe turkey is an even worse place. i would say that since they took 1.7 million and nobody else has, that's a faulty conclusion. pushing that many refugees on any country is going to cause problems.

you're right when you say i shouldn't demand the middle eastern countries take in the refugees. i'll take that back... i think i only said that in a one off post, but i was mostly using that part of my argument to point out the absurdity of importing these people to western countries instead - if their own neighbors won't even take them then why would we?

that's not to say the solution is that the muslim world should take the refugees... maybe they don't have to. maybe the refugees have nowhere to go and should go back to syria. at the end of the day, nobody knows everything about the situation. so following your logic nobody should be proposing any solutions.

also note that the reason there is a tension in turkey is because the refugees are arab. a fact that i did overlook when i said turkey... which is not arab. so that was my mistake in mentioning turkey. but it only adds to my point of the importance of cultural solidarity in a society.

Unknown Soldier

You really don't get it do you, just how democratic by the standards of the western world do you think Turkey is? I've been to Turkey and it's an interesting country but democratic it certainly isn't and it's no wonder nobody wants them in the EU.

You're again making the mistake of thinking that immigrants should only be moving to countries where they are culturally similar and the article that you've used actually defeats your own viewpoint.

The problem with this vein of thought, is that the whole process of immigration becomes limited if people are restricted on where they go due to cultural likeness. I guess you're the type of guy that likes putting things into boxes.

Finally and most importantly, where should these Latin American, African and Middle Eastern immigrants and refugees be going to, based on your logic of easier cultural assimilation?

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John Wilkes Booth

i'm not saying you can never have immigrants from alien cultures. i'm saying mass immigration from an alien culture is going to be problematic. if you have a small number of muslim immigrants from the middle east, as we do here in america, there isn't really much of a problem. notice that america has a lot less of an issue with islamic extremism than europe does. this is because we aren't importing entire communities at a time. yet we do have this issue with latin american/mexican immigrants in certain border states for the reasons i listed earlier. it comes down to scale. if you import too many people from a certain culture, you are creating a barrier to assimilation. or rather you are lessening the incentive for them to assimilate.

the article doesn't go against my viewpoint at all. my viewpoint is that cultural cohesion matters in a society. it is you, the proponents of open ended multiculturalism, who are debunked by the situation in turkey. it has nothing to do with democracy: the turkish govt isn't the one being hostile to the refugees. it is the natives who are expressing nationalist sentiments. it is a cultural/ethnic dilemma. just as i stated before.