The Refugee crisis

Unknown Soldier · 11-11-2015, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

i'm not discounting the value of living in a place... but if you were to raise points on the racial situation in america and my only response was "nah ****'s fine trust me i live here," then you would be an utter fool to take that argument seriously.

it's in your interest to dismiss these videos and it suits your agenda. see how easy that is? this is why i'm not taking you seriously.

incorrect. in some respects they're right. the high number of guns in america is correlated with our unusually high homicide rates. the only place where brits are wrong is in failing to understand how impossible it is to change anything that is in the bill of rights (2nd amendment). that has nothing to do with them not living here and everything to do with them simply being uneducated on the american constitution.

i take youtube videos with a grain of salt... but when i see reports like this i don't just dismiss them without a valid reason to do so. you must know very little about this world if you only trust things that you see in person and never get any information from the news.

yet you didn't trust my knowledge, you told me the gangs were imported when they weren't. some are imported and some are native. zoe pound literally started out in miami directly because of ethnic tension and mistreatment of haitians in that community. no amount of backpacking through south america is going to change that, my friend.

ms-13 is mexican gang that is imported. same with sur-13.

MLK on the other hand is a guatamalan gang in south florida that does not exist in guatemala and arose mostly because guats were often targeted and were vulnerable as a community because they are largely illegal and can't go to the cops when they are robbed.

It looks like it's becoming a waste of time really trying to get through to you, so I'll make it really easy for you to understand:

US: Lives in Europe and knows it pretty well, has a decent awareness of its political and social issues. Once went to New York as a teenager which doesn't really count and what knowledge I have of the USA is mostly from the press and TV. So I take my American knowledge with a pinch of salt

JWB: Lives in the USA and only he knows how well he knows it and has a decent awareness of its political and social issues. Has never been to Europe and what knowledge he has mostly comes from press, tv and YouTube videos. But he treats this European knowledge as almost undeniable fact.

Nobody is stating that there are not racial issues connected with muslims here, just the fact that it needs to be put into perspective. The so called turf war that you're referring to in the video is from an undesirable area of East London , which since the 1960s has always been an area of racial tensions. The area is a small area in the whole East London area and East London is roughly less than a quarter of the whole of London. The city has a population of 8.5 million which kind of means that this whole scenario is of little interest to the people that live here and there are far greater problems here than this. If it wasn't for the press here, nobody would have any idea that this stuff was going on.

Finally nobody is stating that people that don't live or know a place, shouldn't have an opinion about it as nobody would discuss anything. But a certain amount of caution is needed.

I could easily post YouTube videos about gun crime in the USA, but how accurate would that be? But if I wanted to troll or flame a thread it would be a good way to do so.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-11-2015, 11:19 AM

let me make it simple for you:

it is fine to draw on insight from living in the place to inform your opinion, and it's fine to cite your own experience in an argument, although this is anecdotal evidence and as such comes secondary to things that you can cite an actual source for.

this isn't what you are doing. you are operating under the false assumption that living there makes you an authority on the subject, and that you don't need to back up your arguments with any facts or reason.

here is the problem with this: you're not the only person who lives in the UK. and you're not the first person from the UK i've ever spoken to. and at the end of the day... you're just some guy on the internet. i have no inherent reason to believe anything you say. you could be full of **** for all i know. so i judge what you say based on the merit of your words, not based on your self appointed authority on the topic.

so i take what you say with a grain of salt. just as i do the vice news videos. because you are just as likely to have an ideology and an agenda. and really you haven't demonstrated to me that you really have anything meaningful to say on the topic.

also, i've met other people from the UK who differ from your point of view. when i tell you this, you will just dismiss them as biased the same way that you will dismiss me. because it doesn't align with your own point of view. similarly, when i inform them of your assertions, they will dismiss you as biased. see the dilemma, my friend?

Unknown Soldier · 11-11-2015, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

let me make it simple for you:

it is fine to draw on insight from living in the place to inform your opinion, and it's fine to cite your own experience in an argument, although this is anecdotal evidence and as such comes secondary to things that you can cite an actual source for.

this isn't what you are doing. you are operating under the false assumption that living there makes you an authority on the subject, and that you don't need to back up your arguments with any facts or reason.

here is the problem with this: you're not the only person who lives in the UK. and you're not the first person from the UK i've ever spoken to. and at the end of the day... you're just some guy on the internet. i have no inherent reason to believe anything you say. you could be full of **** for all i know. so i judge what you say based on the merit of your words, not based on your self appointed authority on the topic.

so i take what you say with a grain of salt. just as i do the vice news videos. because you are just as likely to have an ideology and an agenda. and really you haven't demonstrated to me that you really have anything meaningful to say on the topic.

also, i've met other people from the UK who differ from your point of view. when i tell you this, you will just dismiss them as biased the same way that you will dismiss me. because it doesn't align with your own point of view. similarly, when i inform them of your assertions, they will dismiss you as biased. see the dilemma, my friend?

What I clearly see is that you're constantly trolling and flaming and you were recently banned for this.

So In the interests of the forum I'm asking the mods to lock down this thread, firstly to stop you trolling it and secondly believe it or not to stop you getting into even deeper water. I also apologize to Trollheart for helping to send his thread off the rails.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-11-2015, 11:59 AM

stop being such a crybaby. i haven't insulted you any more than you've insulted me. if i get banned for anything i posted in this thread then i am simply not fit to post here.

this discussion started off with me stating some of my thoughts on immigration and refugee policies and the way that demographic changes can be problematic. i had several people say they agreed with what i was saying, and it was pertinent to the OP. it only recently devolved into a pissing contest between me and you. you should own your piece in that and stop acting like a victim.

grindy · 11-11-2015, 12:00 PM

I'm a first generation eastern-european immigrant living in Germany.
I've grown up with fellow eastern-europeans, as well as arabs, turks and africans, all in a very diverse neighbourhood in our very diverse city.
So I'd say I know a thing or two about european multiculturalism first-hand.
I pretty much agree with what JWB says, a huge part of the problems faced from immigration are problems fuelled by cultural differences and it seems weird how people always try to downplay that, just because it makes us uncomfortable.
Sure, JWB is being edgy again here and there, but most of what he said in this thread is spot on.

**Janszoon** · 11-11-2015, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

the stats above refer specifically to rape, burglary and robbery. if our friends in london have ambiguous definitions of these crimes then that's just another reason not to trust the british.

You were talking about violent crime, now you're lumping burglary into the conversation. Not very conclusive.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-11-2015, 12:31 PM

^alright, maybe violent crime isn't the best term. that doesn't negate the stats i did provide, does it? i'm not saying they're conclusive but you seem determined to dismiss them either way. i was initially referring to an article i saw a long time ago that i can't find. i think it had to do with violent crime. but basically, once again, the only reason i was bringing up the crime rates was as part of the assertion that importing large numbers of poor immigrants usually = importing poverty and crime. the kinds of crimes involved are really a secondary detail.

but once again these stats are mainly used to demonstrate that criminal elements exist in london etc yet they have a much lower homicide rate because they don't have guns. it runs contrary to the common talking point that if people didn't have guns they would murder just as often with other weapons like knives, bats, etc. usually areas that have high crime in the states likewise have a high murder rate... but in london this isn't the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grindy

I'm a first generation eastern-european immigrant living in Germany.
I've grown up with fellow eastern-europeans, as well as arabs, turks and africans, all in a very diverse neighbourhood in our very diverse city.
So I'd say I know a thing or two about european multiculturalism first-hand.
I pretty much agree with what JWB says, a huge part of the problems faced from immigration are problems fuelled by cultural differences and it seems weird how people always try to downplay that, just because it makes us uncomfortable.
Sure, JWB is being edgy again here and there, but most of what he said in this thread is spot on.

i can't seem to escape being edgy... it's just in my blood i think. cause i honestly haven't said anything in this thread for the sake of controversy.

and i'd add that i don't have first hand experience with european multiculturalism... so what i say about it is admittedly based on 2nd hand information coupled with my first hand experience with american multiculturalism. because there are similar issues here. minus the religious aspect, for the most part.

but there are some basic things i've seen which would make me nervous if i were over there. like the fact that the muslim community there is producing guys like anjem choudary, who is given a platform to preach radical islam and openly advocate the subversion of the existing system in favor of a shariah based caliphate. or stats that say a worrying % of british muslims hold somewhat radical views. Many British Muslims Put Islam First - CBS News

do i think they will get their caliphate...? not really... but my line of thinking is why on earth would you want to import this kind of idiocy into your country?

and contrary to what some think, i don't have a beef with muslims in general. the muslim immigrants in the states are not an issue, and most of the muslims in europe probably aren't either. but there are too many extremists to not find that worrying.

in comparison... we have a problem in the united states with homegrown christian extremism... if these people were largely coming from immigrant communities and the religious radicalism in general was a reflection of the cultures they were imported from, yea i think that would be an issue. unfortunately they're from here so we're stuck with them.

William_the_Bloody · 11-11-2015, 12:37 PM

I see both pros and cons with the refugee crisis.

1) Pro: Europe (particularly Germany) are headed into demographic decline, which isn't good for GDP growth, the refugees in Germany will help boost the demographics in the long run, therefore GDP & European standard of living as well.

2) Con: Electorally, studies have shown that ethnic ridings tend to place a high value on pro immigration policies when it comes to voting, and it doesn't take much of a shift in the demographics, before parties have to cater to these riding in order to win.

So in short, you end up having a continuous open door policy on immigration, which is fine ,so long as it doesn't adversely impact the standard of living of the native born population.

This is of course the great xenophobic fear, and why the far right is experiencing a renewal across Europe.

**Janszoon** · 11-11-2015, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

^alright, maybe violent crime isn't the best term. that doesn't negate the stats i did provide, does it? i'm not saying they're conclusive but you seem determined to dismiss them either way. i was initially referring to an article i saw a long time ago that i can't find. i think it had to do with violent crime. but basically, once again, the only reason i was bringing up the crime rates was as part of the assertion that importing large numbers of poor immigrants usually = importing poverty and crime. the kinds of crimes involved are really a secondary detail.

I just was looking for a source. You gave me one that doesn't really jibe with your claim.

grindy · 11-11-2015, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

^alright, maybe violent crime isn't the best term. that doesn't negate the stats i did provide, does it? i'm not saying they're conclusive but you seem determined to dismiss them either way. i was initially referring to an article i saw a long time ago that i can't find. i think it had to do with violent crime. but basically, once again, the only reason i was bringing up the crime rates was as part of the assertion that importing large numbers of poor immigrants usually = importing poverty and crime. the kinds of crimes involved are really a secondary detail.

but once again these stats are mainly used to demonstrate that criminal elements exist in london etc yet they have a much lower homicide rate because they don't have guns. it runs contrary to the common talking point that if people didn't have guns they would murder just as often with other weapons like knives, bats, etc. usually areas that have high crime in the states likewise have a high murder rate... but in london this isn't the case.

i can't seem to escape being edgy... it's just in my blood i think. cause i honestly haven't said anything in this thread for the sake of controversy.

and i'd add that i don't have first hand experience with european multiculturalism... so what i say about it is admittedly based on 2nd hand information coupled with my first hand experience with american multiculturalism. because there are similar issues here. minus the religious aspect, for the most part.

but there are some basic things i've seen which would make me nervous if i were over there. like the fact that the muslim community there is producing guys like anjem choudary, who is given a platform to preach radical islam and openly advocate the subversion of the existing system in favor of a shariah based caliphate. or stats that say a worrying % of british muslims hold somewhat radical views. Many British Muslims Put Islam First - CBS News

do i think they will get their caliphate...? not really... but my line of thinking is why on earth would you want to import this kind of idiocy into your country?

and contrary to what some think, i don't have a beef with muslims in general. the muslim immigrants in the states are not an issue, and most of the muslims in europe probably aren't either. but there are too many extremists to not find that worrying.

in comparison... we have a problem in the united states with homegrown christian extremism... if these people were largely coming from immigrant communities and the religious radicalism in general was a reflection of the cultures they were imported from, yea i think that would be an issue. unfortunately they're from here so we're stuck with them.

I've never had the feeling that you were in any way xenophobic and islamophobic and it's scary how it's impossible to have a discussion about multiculturalism and related topics, without having those accusations hurled at you.

11-11-2015, 12:00 PM	#95 (permalink)
grindy . Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: . Posts: 7,201	I'm a first generation eastern-european immigrant living in Germany. I've grown up with fellow eastern-europeans, as well as arabs, turks and africans, all in a very diverse neighbourhood in our very diverse city. So I'd say I know a thing or two about european multiculturalism first-hand. I pretty much agree with what JWB says, a huge part of the problems faced from immigration are problems fuelled by cultural differences and it seems weird how people always try to downplay that, just because it makes us uncomfortable. Sure, JWB is being edgy again here and there, but most of what he said in this thread is spot on. __________________ *A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.*

11-11-2015, 11:19 AM	#92 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	let me make it simple for you: it is fine to draw on insight from living in the place to inform your opinion, and it's fine to cite your own experience in an argument, although this is anecdotal evidence and as such comes secondary to things that you can cite an actual source for. this isn't what you are doing. you are operating under the false assumption that living there makes you an authority on the subject, and that you don't need to back up your arguments with any facts or reason. here is the problem with this: you're not the only person who lives in the UK. and you're not the first person from the UK i've ever spoken to. and at the end of the day... you're just some guy on the internet. i have no inherent reason to believe anything you say. you could be full of **** for all i know. so i judge what you say based on the merit of your words, not based on your self appointed authority on the topic. so i take what you say with a grain of salt. just as i do the vice news videos. because you are just as likely to have an ideology and an agenda. and really you haven't demonstrated to me that you really have anything meaningful to say on the topic. also, i've met other people from the UK who differ from your point of view. when i tell you this, you will just dismiss them as biased the same way that you will dismiss me. because it doesn't align with your own point of view. similarly, when i inform them of your assertions, they will dismiss you as biased. see the dilemma, my friend?

11-11-2015, 11:59 AM	#94 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	stop being such a crybaby. i haven't insulted you any more than you've insulted me. if i get banned for anything i posted in this thread then i am simply not fit to post here. this discussion started off with me stating some of my thoughts on immigration and refugee policies and the way that demographic changes can be problematic. i had several people say they agreed with what i was saying, and it was pertinent to the OP. it only recently devolved into a pissing contest between me and you. you should own your piece in that and stop acting like a victim.

11-11-2015, 12:37 PM	#98 (permalink)
William_the_Bloody Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Sunnydale Cemetary Posts: 2,093	I see both pros and cons with the refugee crisis. 1) Pro: Europe (particularly Germany) are headed into demographic decline, which isn't good for GDP growth, the refugees in Germany will help boost the demographics in the long run, therefore GDP & European standard of living as well. 2) Con: Electorally, studies have shown that ethnic ridings tend to place a high value on pro immigration policies when it comes to voting, and it doesn't take much of a shift in the demographics, before parties have to cater to these riding in order to win. So in short, you end up having a continuous open door policy on immigration, which is fine ,so long as it doesn't adversely impact the standard of living of the native born population. This is of course the great xenophobic fear, and why the far right is experiencing a renewal across Europe.