The Batlord

Disclaimer: Anyone is free to chyme in, but I'm more interested in the male point of view, as -- no offense -- but, as a male, I wouldn't really be as qualified as a woman to comment on traditional female gender roles and expectations either.

Anywho, I'm not one to be particularly concerned with male gender roles: I don't really care to involve myself with traditional male activities, such as sports, even though I certainly appreciate the competitive aspect, and can enjoy the testosterone rush and camaraderie of actually participating in physically demanding team sports on occasion; I have no invested interest in defining myself as a man, even though I certainly consider my one, due to my lack of non-male or gender neutral "feelings", or whatever such notions runs through those peoples' heads; and while I'd consider myself heterosexual if pressed to define my sexuality, I feel no inclination to remain "loyal" to my "straightness" (While I'm really not attracted to men, I don't see the problem with engaging in a little recreational, same-sex friction if I were in an adventurous mood and the opportunity presented itself.)

But of course, even in many the most enlightened circles, there's still a certain, unspoken expectation that men conform to at least some traditional male attributes. Whether it be not hitting women, avoiding playing the "female role" in a relationship, maintaining that wall of manly stoicism that precludes crying or talking too much about your feelings, etc.

Then of course there are the more mainstream societal expectations that are even more restrictive. Having worked more than a few minimum wage jobs where my fellow male employees would have looked at me like an alien had I ever showed up listening to Britney Spears on an iPod, or claimed to be straight while still having had sex with a dude, I know that it's nearly impossible to integrate yourself into certain male subcultures without being "one of them", or at least pretending to. I listen to music that would make your average dude's look like Celine Dion, and objectify women and their naked boobies as much as the next straight dude, and yet that would simply be ignored in light of Britney and a night of drunken dick sucking.

Fight Club expressed this tension pretty well. Men are supposed to be more enlightened in this day and age, while still being expected to conform to old stereotypes that conflict with the new standards, and the issue is further muddied because of those ingrained instincts for men to be hunters and warriors, ready to commit violence at a moment's notice. I know it's hard to be a woman in a man's world, but it's also quite a headache to be a man in a world that doesn't even know what men are supposed to be anymore. It's like, can we just make up our minds already? I'd like to **** bitches and watch General Hospital in peace already.

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Urban Hat€monger ?

This was on TV a couple of weeks ago and is worth watching to see Milo Yiannopoulos takedown a couple of gobby feminist nut jobs around 8 mins in.

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Chula Vista

So, what's the question?

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

The Batlord

I think one good thing that the video unintentionally brings up is the cognitive dissonance concerning ideas about gender indentity. On the one hand, many people try to say that gender is a construct, and is only due to how children are raised in society, and yet we see the transgender woman around 12:00-13:00, and if someone were to tell her that her gender was a construct, they would be treated as a pariah. Either there's a mental, developmental difference between men and women that is innate, or transgender people are delusional and should receive psychological treatment for their mental disorder. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Not really a question, just a topic for discussion.

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Chula Vista

As I've noted here before I was raised in a home with my mom, her partner and her daughter, and my two sisters. We got to see my dad for 1 afternoon a week and that was basically go outside and play so I can court my new young hot wife. I seriously don't remember a single time we tossed a ball or watched a game together. I was picked on relentlessly at school because my mom was "queer" and my home life was even more depressing because of physical and emotional abuse.

In very quick succession I landed a lucky punch in a schoolyard fight and split a kids face open, discovered Led Zeppelin, and decided to learn the guitar. Almost overnight it seemed I earned respect and became cool. I probably overcompensated a bit macho wise during my teen years but heck, I'd earned it I guess based on how ****ty things had before before then.

I don't have a gay cell in my body but I'm about as far from homophobic as a person can be. I love sports - but that's just about a birthright based on my Boston roots. I will not take **** from anyone except my wife and I've always given 100% at trying to be the best father possible.

I haven't a clue what all of the above has to do with the OP but that's all I got at the moment.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

GuD

People have killed themselves over being told things like this their whole lives.

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I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc

The Batlord

My point stands, either gender is innate, and not a social construct, or transgenders are delusional.

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WWWP

There are definitely developmental differences between the biological "male" and "female," so in that regard I think you can consider that those differences innate biological traits, but there are so many variations and exceptions that putting weight in the idea of a male/female line in regard to identity is silly. There are obviously core differences between people on one side of that made up line or the other, the danger comes in assuming you have to fit - or forcing others to fit - into one category or the other.

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#DEMODFROWNLAND
#TERMLIMITSFORMODERATORS

Oriphiel

Why does it have to be either nature or nurture? Why can't both have an effect on people and their identities?

In my opinion, gender is partly a social construct, and partly something inherent. After all, there was a pre-societal time before we had such constructs as the idea of the modern man and woman, and yet almost every culture in the world developed to have men and women in roughly the same roles (though it isn't absolute, since there were/are a few matriarchies, even though they're few and far between). And this is taking into account the fact that these similar customs came from ancient nations that had very little to no communication with each other. The average man and the average woman have differences, both physically and mentally; different averages of physical strength, different ways of interpreting and solving problems, etc. So yes, in a way, each gender is born different, with skill sets that lend themselves to fulfill certain roles.

Many of society's ideas of what is "correct" for those gender roles are created to accentuate those natural inclinations. They're like those old fancy dresses that had wire frames, and accentuated a woman's hips (a sign of her femininity/fertility) to a ridiculous degree; they are not necessarily naturally inherent in the gender, just as the dress is not apart of the woman, but they play off of what is usually there. These can have obvious correlations; some of the more obvious are that men, being born on average with more physical strength and testosterone, are expected to take part in a variety of physical activities, and women, being burdened and vulnerable while developing (and, after birth, caring for and breastfeeding) a child, and usually having higher amounts of estrogen, are expected to be "protected", and to find value in emotive and social roles. But there are also gender roles that are more specific for each culture, and show how fleeting our ideas of what comes naturally in a man and woman can sometimes be; in ancient China, it was considered a strong sign of male bonding when two men held hands, a sign of togetherness and brotherhood, and it was also considered very moving when a man was brought to tears, showing their passion for something. In various Native American tribes, homosexuals were accepted in the community, and were considered to simply be men who were born with a female's spirit inside them. Another example is how not so very long ago, in america, pink was considered a "boy's color", while blue was considered "feminine". Also, in ancient Rome, there were many female gladiators, although evidence of their existence is only recently starting to be found and accepted. Anyway, in many modern cultures, these are now considered "unmanly"/"unwomanly".

My point is, a lot of what we consider to be a "man" or a "woman" is inherent, but society takes those natural differences and comes up with a few culture-specific ways of expressing those genders that is not inherent. And remember, you can't forget that these gender roles work off of averages, but not everyone is average. Everyone is different. Is it really so strange when a man born with a certain factors, like a higher then usual amount of estrogen, ends up identifying with the opposite gender? Their desire to switch comes as naturally to them as someone else's desire to stay. But that's not to say that they are immune to societal constructs; homosexuals have plenty of activities that they are expected to enjoy, and an image that they are supposed to project.

Just my two cents. Feel free to TL;DR.

ladyislingering

Pretty much everyone with a heart and a functional brain in their head has said everything I would have mentioned but here are my main problems with how patriarchal values/specifically male gender roles affect men:

"Boys aren't allowed to cry/crying makes you a sissy!"

This is nasty toward both men and women because crying is a completely natural, normal occurrence and nobody should ever be ashamed to cry or show their emotions; on the other side of the coin, implying that crying makes a man "girly" and that he should be ashamed to be "girly" reinforces a negative opinion of women by bringing into a play a stereotypical "female-only" behavior. Crying is therapeutic. Emotions are important and normal.

"You're making THAT fashion/grooming choice? What are you, some kind of girl/gay boy?"

I'm going to use long-haired men as an example here. Some people are really rude about their hairstyle of choice because somehow or another, long hair came to be a feminine choice. Again, telling a man that his hairstyle (perceived as feminine) is shameful because it is perceived as feminine is damaging to women, but it's also damaging to men because it is discriminatory and rude.

I've also heard people make snide remarks about the sexuality of a man, insinuating that just because he has some feminine qualities, he must be gay. Well, if he's gay, it's none of your damn business! But it's also rude to assume that every gay man carries and dresses himself in a decidedly feminine manner just because he prefers dudes.

"You were nice to a woman? Better turn in your 'man card'!"

Men are often times expected to be ignorant douchenozzles incapable of understanding or concerning themselves with the emotional needs of women (and are often portrayed as such in the media) so when it's even lightly suggested that a man is acting like a decent human being, treating the lady/ladies in his life as if they matter to him, all his caveman buddies chortle "better turn in your 'man card'!"

This is a toxic attitude to men because their peer groups are important to them and they don't want to be ridiculed, so they change their behavior around their friends - or even completely, entirely, regardless of the situation - and end up hurting others with their stoical displays. I don't even think I need to fully explain why it's also harmful to women.

anyway I'm a little too drunk to carry on but I'm sure I could think of more.

the patriarchy hurts everyone.

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