FRED HALE SR.

I like the option of owning a business through hardwork as opposed to waiting for some handout that everyone else will be waiting in line for. Socialism is just a way of rewarding lazy people and condemning them to a life of handouts. Who would you rather have control policies? Socialism isn't about sharing wealth its a construct of laziness. You don't like the position your in then find a way to better yourself. I paid student loans like everyone else. I worked my way up from a gas station to this to that. I never complained because I was raised to work hard and learn to adapt my abilities into a viable income for myself. I certainly don't like the policies that encompass the masses but that is something that would be even worse off in a Socialist society. Would you rather have a say in something or a say in nothing?

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" I slashed and burned thru my 15 minutes of fame."

The Batlord

How many people can honestly own a business? The idea of capitalism requires a class pyramid. Sure, everyone potentially has the chance to "make it", but for the system to work, you have to have a greater number of burger flippers and grease monkey mechanics than people who can afford golf clubs. Even if the entire nation was full of college graduates, you'd still have to have particle physicists working full-time at McDonalds' for their entire lives. I'm no socialist, but unchecked social Darwinism is still nonsense.

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FRED HALE SR.

Anyone who so desires can own a business. Get a loan. I've seen guys with tamale carts that love their jobs and do just fine for themselves. Sounds like you are partial to socialism. In theory it sounds great until you have to live it on a daily basis. Why do socialist societies have it so bad if its such a wonderful alternative? Venezuela immediately comes to mind. And i've never met a particle physicist that worked at Mcdonald's but i'd have to say i'd be impressed with her/his work ethic if he/she did. I've never seen being a mechanic as being some lowly job myself its a trade that somebody went to school to master and requires alot of skill. Lots of people claim to be mechanics but there are only so many that truly know what they're doing.

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" I slashed and burned thru my 15 minutes of fame."

The Batlord

Yes, anyone can potentially own a business, but there's only so many people who can fill a certain socio-economic strata before there's no more room. If a business owner didn't have lower paid employees because everyone else had their own business, then the entire scheme would fail. Capitalism requires a certain number of people to fail, or at least succeed less than others, financially speaking. The entire reason you are able to own your own business, besides your hard work, is that your peers were less successful than you and therefore left an opening for you to exploit.

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James

Well I can't talk about how it is in America. But here - old money is dominant. Most of the extreme wealth (the most telling in my opinion) has been passed down for generations. Yeah there's a huge middle class, but it's near impossible to penetrate the upper classes. Working class families like mine struggle. WORKING class. Both my parents slave away at their jobs, we're still poor as ****.

The Batlord

It's hard to typify America, as it's so ****ing big, but generally our middle class jobs seem to be the kind you'd need at least a four-year degree for; pretty much anything a "working class" schmuck would have access to would be a job with little to no room for advancement. An unfortunately large amount of these jobs seem to be fast food and other entry level hell jobs where you can be easily replaced by a sixteen-year-old.

Plumbing and welding and other "trade school" jobs are available, though I don't know how available they are in general, but since our education system is pretty much centered around getting kids into college (which it still sucks at), anybody who isn't college-bound is pretty much left to fend for themselves without being given any idea as to what to do next. You'd think there'd be some kind of partnership between public schools and trade schools to give kids some direction, but there isn't at all.

So pretty much, either you go to college and have a decent chance at a decent life, or you don't and eke out an existence as a replaceable cog.

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FRED HALE SR.

I didn't forget you Epoch, i'm just growing keyboard weary fighting this battle alone. LOL I think in theory alot of what you say holds weight, but there are so many more flaws invested in Socialism.

Jame's, sorry to hear about your families plight. I certainly wish your family the best. I think what people are missing is that Socialism isn't some magical cure all and it isn't gonna change anyones current situation.

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" I slashed and burned thru my 15 minutes of fame."

EPOCH6

Right, and I think I made it pretty clear that I'm not suggesting socialism as a preferable alternative to what we have now. I'm only suggesting that a lot of us are too easy on capitalism, we get so caught up in our own success and work ethic that we forget how we got here in the first place and how there are many people out there who weren't in a position like ours. We need to stop saying things like "Everybody has equal opportunity" or "Everybody has the potential to do this or that", it's over-generalizing, it's failing to acknowledge people with disabilities, birth defects, and mental illnesses, it's failing to acknowledge being born into poverty, it's failing to acknowledge being scammed by others. It's that kind of ignorance that allows holes in the system to sneak by unchecked. If we want capitalism to continue working as well as it does it needs to monitored, we can't just kneel down before it, we must identify its flaws and address them in one way or another. That doesn't mean pushing for socialism, that means adapting the current system to suit a complex society where not everybody is born in the same neighborhood.

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FRED HALE SR.

I noticed you mentioned that capitalism was a far better option, I was merely saying that to address the forum. I actually agree with about 90 percent of what you've written so I think we're on the same page. And I acknowledge that Capitalism has its faults, albeit I see it as the only alternative. People with disabilities/birth defects/mental illnesses are afforded care and job assistance that others are not privy to so I disagree in a sense with that assessment. Being born into poverty even affords you certain student loans and scholarships that people are not afforded in slightly different tax brackets. I've seen a drastic amount of change in that aspect since i've left school. I think more opportunity is out there then not. The current system isn't without its flaws but then again there isn't much in the World without flaws. I do have to say you've given me much more to think about in challenging capitalist society then the people who want to adopt socialism as a real means.

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" I slashed and burned thru my 15 minutes of fame."

FRED HALE SR.

I have officially retired from the thread. You guys will be sorry you commie mother****ers. LOL

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" I slashed and burned thru my 15 minutes of fame."