Socialism

DwnWthVwls · 07-19-2018, 07:49 PM

Heroin junkies that steal from their friends/family, don't work, and fuck society deserve to be poor unless by some circumstance they are not the reason they are addicts. You can only help someone so many times...

OccultHawk · 07-19-2018, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Heroin junkies that steal from their friends/family, don't work, and fuck society deserve to be poor unless by some circumstance they are not the reason they are addicts. You can only help someone so many times...

I try to keep away from even recovering (or recovered or whatever) junkies because I’ve had so many bad experiences

but

they shouldn’t be abandoned to suffer any more than cancer patients

DwnWthVwls · 07-19-2018, 08:09 PM

Here's how I look at it.. deserve is kind of a tricky word because I don't think "hey you junkie, you should be poor because youre scum", I think "hey you made some really bad decisions and dont give a **** about anyone so you deserve to suffer the consequences of your actions".

Also, I assume we agree that all people are equal (generally speaking). Why do you think it's justified to prop up one unrelentingly negligent person who doesnt care at the cost of damaging multiple people who are equals? Why is their betterment more valuable than the multiple people they are harming?

The difference between the junkie and the cancer patient is that the cancer patient isn't actively causing intentional harms to others and themselves.

Edit: and likewise, 20+ people I know and went to school with have died from ODs since highschool (my entire highschool was only 400 kids).

The Batlord · 07-19-2018, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

That'd be a cool argument if there wasn't 1000+ years of human progress that coincided with a change in thought.. Human history has never changed by incentivizing the powerful few, it changed from the hard work of the subservient class, but you'd rather bitch than do the work. Like most people, you're stuck in the mindset of wanting a bandaid fix instead of a long term solution.

The subservient few do not change society, they build and maintain the infrastructure. Do you think it was the poor who developed democracy in Athens or do you think it was daffy elites who had the leisure to engage in intellectual pursuits such as experimental politics because they didn't have to sweat their balls off just to survive? Do you think it was the poor who were responsible for the Enlightenment that developed into modern, democratic, Western culture, or was it elites like John Locke and Thomas Jefferson? The poor are too busy worrying about being able to feed themselves and their families. But they also provide the opportunity for those elites to masturbate things like the social contract and democracy and capitalism while never truly benefiting from those ideas the same as the elites.

And as much progress has been created by those elites they've never managed or just been truly committed to dissolving those power structures that have created such inequalities. Our politicians and capitalists are still aristocrats and our poor are still peasants, just with different terms to describe them. The poor will never save themselves and the elites will never save them either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

The difference between the junkie and the cancer patient is that the cancer patient isn't actively causing intentional harms to others and themselves.

The difference between junkies and cancer patients is that the disease junkies suffer from does not make them sympathetic. Both have diseases that destroy them but the junkie's disease is one of the mind that is hard to conceptualize. I don't like associating with junkies either since my experience with them is that they are toxic to everyone they know, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a debilitating disease worthy of sympathy, no matter how galling it is to give them that sympathy.

Oriphiel · 07-19-2018, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I didn't work minimum wage jobs since I was 16 to help fund my future or anything. I didn't pay for my education while living on my own and working.. Nope, not me. I just used Elph for child labor when he was 8. Got me again, Ori.

It was an honest series of questions. No need to be condescending. I get the feeling that you think I'm some extremist who wants to abolish all Capitalism, just because I recognize and acknowledge the human fuel such a system requires to function, even though you acknowledge it as well.

Btw, you and I seem to have similar lives. Worked since I was old enough, paid my way through college. I also try not to blame other people when I fuck up, and push myself to be better than I am.

I wasn't trying to say that you're a trust funder who has never worked hard, or whatever you seem to really want me to be implying.

My point was that the very fact that you and I were born in the most powerful nation in the world and were given the rare opportunity to even have a chance to succeed, to put our hard work to use in bettering ourselves and our situations, is an opportunity that was crafted from the misery of millions who were never given such an opportunity themselves. For people like us to "pull ourselves up by the bootstraps", millions have to go without. You've already agreed with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I'm not jeering anyone and I have equal, if not harsher, criticisms of myself, because we can almost always do better. I'm not sorry if you're offended by my honesty.

This is a really weird backtrack. You **** on Batlord and Elph, and then say that you're not jeering at anyone. Just own it. You look down on them. It's fine. Everybody on MD does.

And nah, not offended, just shooting the shit. Don't know why every internet debater has to throw up some "lol, u mad?" or "triggered" whenever they start to run out of steam. It's like whoever admits to actually being passionate about the topic is the loser by virtue of caring, 'cause only nerds care. Honestly, it's getting really boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

That'd be a cool argument if there wasn't 1000+ years of human progress that coincided with a change in thought.. Human history has never changed by incentivizing the powerful few, it changed from the hard work of the subservient class, but you'd rather bitch than do the work. Like most people, you're stuck in the mindset of wanting a bandaid fix instead of a long term solution.

Please show me where I advocated a band-aid fix in favor of a long term solution. Also please show me where I disregarded the power of human thought over the grand course of humanity's existence.

My point was that, specifically in the here and now, wage slaves in third world countries are given no chances to escape their caste. The mindset these people hold has virtually no correlation to their level of success. You've already agreed with this.

A person in our country, in the position that you and I were both born into, has more opportunities to succeed, and to have positive thinking and hard work affect their quality of life (though there still aren't any guarentees). Rising out of extreme poverty in the US can be done, even though it is oftentimes a matter of luck, of being fortunate enough to get out before various things permanently lock you into place. But the foundation of the economy and society that we both reap the benefits of, came from, and continues to come from, the unskilled labor of the international masses. You've already agreed with this as well.

In fact, we agree on pretty much everything. I think the main thing you take issue with is that you've come to the conclusion that I actually support overthrowing our Capitalist structure, or that I think human willpower is never relevant in any situation. I don't. I also don't think that every person living above poverty is evil, or that there aren't many people that make bad choices and negatively affect their own futures. Much more about adding various Socialist ideas and functions to our society to balance it in small but progressively effective ways. Especially when it comes to healthcare.

Oriphiel · 07-19-2018, 09:01 PM

Wait, why was Hawk banned?

The Batlord · 07-19-2018, 09:01 PM

I'm guessing for a deleted post.

Oriphiel · 07-19-2018, 09:05 PM

Yo mods, how long?

DwnWthVwls · 07-19-2018, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor

heavily disagree with the entire line of thinking here

drug addiction is a medical issue generally tied to an attempt to self medicate a larger mental health issue

the answer to this problem is 100% nuture

I'm not willing to ruin the lives of many to save one person who didnt think about the impact of their decisions.. and of all the people I know who OD'd it was because they thought it was fun to abuse prescription drugs and moved on to heroin. See, I have anecdotes too.

Your whole attitude of making everyone suffer so a few can rise up is the opposite of productive. I have no interest in helping those who don't make an effort to help themselves unless they are literally incapable of making an effort from some debilitating factor. Doing heroin because you think it's fun, when you grew up in white suburbia and were educated, and then spiraled out of control is not a case worth helping unless that person is actively trying to get clean and rehabilitate. Only after I help everyone else that wants to improve do they get my help. Someone has to be picked last, that's just reality, get your priorities in order.

What's your experience with junkies who you actually know and witnessed? Not the randos you met in your punk days.

DwnWthVwls · 07-19-2018, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

The difference between junkies and cancer patients is that the disease junkies suffer from does not make them sympathetic. Both have diseases that destroy them but the junkie's disease is one of the mind that is hard to conceptualize. I don't like associating with junkies either since my experience with them is that they are toxic to everyone they know, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a debilitating disease worthy of sympathy, no matter how galling it is to give them that sympathy.

I'll just agree to disagree with the first deleted part because there are plenty of examples in history of wage minorities creating positive change and revolutions, that I'm sure you're not ignorant of.

The difference between junkies and cancer patients is junkies gave themselves the disease. See my response to Elph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriphiel

It was an honest series of questions. No need to be condescending. I get the feeling that you think I'm some extremist who wants to abolish all Capitalism, just because I recognize and acknowledge the human fuel such a system requires to function, even though you acknowledge it as well.

Btw, you and I seem to have similar lives. Worked since I was old enough, paid my way through college. I also try not to blame other people when I fuck up, and push myself to be better than I am.

I wasn't trying to say that you're a trust funder who has never worked hard, or whatever you seem to really want me to be implying.

My point was that the very fact that you and I were born in the most powerful nation in the world and were given the rare opportunity to even have a chance to succeed, to put our hard work to use in bettering ourselves and our situations, is an opportunity that was crafted from the misery of millions who were never given such an opportunity themselves. For people like us to "pull ourselves up by the bootstraps", millions have to go without. You've already agreed with this.

This is a really weird backtrack. You **** on Batlord and Elph, and then say that you're not jeering at anyone. Just own it. You look down on them. It's fine. Everybody on MD does.

And nah, not offended, just shooting the shit. Don't know why every internet debater has to throw up some "lol, u mad?" or "triggered" whenever they start to run out of steam. It's like whoever admits to actually being passionate about the topic is the loser by virtue of caring, 'cause only nerds care. Honestly, it's getting really boring.

Please show me where I advocated a band-aid fix in favor of a long term solution. Also please show me where I disregarded the power of human thought over the grand course of humanity's existence.

My point was that, specifically in the here and now, wage slaves in third world countries are given no chances to escape their caste. The mindset these people hold has virtually no correlation to their level of success. You've already agreed with this.

A person in our country, in the position that you and I were both born into, has more opportunities to succeed, and to have positive thinking and hard work affect their quality of life (though there still aren't any guarentees). Rising out of extreme poverty in the US can be done, even though it is oftentimes a matter of luck, of being fortunate enough to get out before various things permanently lock you into place. But the foundation of the economy and society that we both reap the benefits of, came from, and continues to come from, the unskilled labor of the international masses. You've already agreed with this as well.

In fact, we agree on pretty much everything. I think the main thing you take issue with is that you've come to the conclusion that I actually support overthrowing our Capitalist structure, or that I think human willpower is never relevant in any situation. I don't. I also don't think that every person living above poverty is evil, or that there aren't many people that make bad choices and negatively affect their own futures. Much more about adding various Socialist ideas and functions to our society to balance it in small but progressively effective ways. Especially when it comes to healthcare.

You asked me why I was jeering at them. I don't consider pointing out things they can improve jeering given the context of the conversation and the position I'm taking. I don't look down on them at all.

I responded that way because you saying that I should be thanking them or whatever implies exactly what you're denying. Perhaps it was said sarcastically, idk, I was just responding. And no that wasn't some sort of "u mad, bro?".

You seem to be missing the fact that I think success is relative to the reality you experience.

The last part was directed at Batlord, which I quoted him on, unless I ****ed up the post. I didnt check it after I commented.

Edit: Also, I don't think anything about you. I don't know you at all since you don't disclose, or I've missed the times when you did, much about yourself.

View Poll Results: Do you like socialism? (explain reasons in thread)
Yes	17	58.62%
No	11	37.93%
I'm confused	1	3.45%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

07-19-2018, 09:01 PM	#156 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	Wait, why was Hawk banned? __________________ ---------------------- \|---Mic's Albums---\| ---------------------- ----------------------------- \|---Deafbox Industries---\| -----------------------------

07-19-2018, 09:05 PM	#158 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,354	Yo mods, how long? __________________ ---------------------- \|---Mic's Albums---\| ---------------------- ----------------------------- \|---Deafbox Industries---\| -----------------------------