The French Massacre - Do We Stand Up For Free Speech?

Chula Vista · 01-09-2015, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Oh ok. But why does it matter?

It shouldn't.

So we all agree the magazine should have been able to publish the cartoons. And we all agree that them getting killed for it was wrong.

Do we all agree that the magazine didn't use any common sense - considering who they were dealing with?

And please don't respond with "But the extremists should have simply protested instead". That's just being naive.

Trollheart · 01-09-2015, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland

Oh ok. But why does it matter?

I think it matters because everyone is going on as if this came out of the blue. How did this happen? How could it happen? It's pretty obvious how and why it happened. I think that's what Chula is saying. People are shocked. They should not be. They should be saddened, but not shocked.

And do you think, CB, with their deaths (if they are dead) that the sudden Islamophobia in France will now stop? Yeah. Sure it will. They're all the same, aren't they after all?

~~James~~ · 01-09-2015, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Typical. Read it again. Nobody is justifying murder. All I personally said is that this was not a random case of innocents being targeted. If you **** with people like this expect what you get. I do not condone it, I've said that several times. If you still want to believe that, and take what you want to take from my comments, feel free. But I am not in any way justifying this or saying they got what they deserved. I just pointed out that it's not like someone being stabbed in the street for nothing, or that soldier in the UK who got killed. These guys pushed, knowing what they were doing could and probably would provoke this kind of reaction, and now suddenly they're ****ing heroes??

Typical? What exactly do you mean by that? You can frame what you're saying however you want, but on a base level justifying their actions is exactly what you're doing. It shouldn't matter who the victims even were, the fact is they were brutally murdered and that's horrible. Their actions have no bearing on the moral implications of what the gunmen did. I don't think anyone is viewing them as heroes, they've more become martyrs because they died while taking full advantage of our civil liberties.
The Lee Rigby case is entirely different, but using your arguments - didn't they kill him because of his complacency and participation in an illegal war that killed hundreds of innocents and ravaged the Middle East? I wouldn't say so, because no matter how much I disagree with what Lee Rigby has done being beheaded in the street is a disgusting way to be killed. Even if Lee Rigby or the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had been truly atrocious human beings, the murderers are still the ones to blame. People should simply not be subjected to these levels of violence.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 01-09-2015, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

And do you think, CB, with their deaths (if they are dead) that the sudden Islamophobia in France will now stop? Yeah. Sure it will. They're all the same, aren't they after all?

What?

**Janszoon** · 01-09-2015, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

This sums it up pretty spot on. And from The Catholic League no less.

MUSLIMS ARE RIGHT TO BE ANGRY - Catholic League

I see that Bill Donohue is still going for the gold in the America's biggest idiot competition.

~~James~~ · 01-09-2015, 10:56 AM

I think this foreshadows worrying things in France, and Europe as a whole. The economic crisis has already left a good deal of the countries in the EU leaning right and blaming minorities for their troubles. This is just going to maximise that. I think the only hope is that Muslim police officer that was also killed, he is important because people can look at him and see how negative an impact something like this has on absolutely everyone.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 01-09-2015, 10:57 AM

Another four people killed btw. So that takes the death toll up to 16 is it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlQJbsVs48

I'm watching on here.

"At least four"

Chula Vista · 01-09-2015, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

I think the only hope is that Muslim police officer that was also killed, he is important because people can look at him and see how negative an impact something like this has on absolutely everyone.

I read an interview with a young Muslim doctor who helped treat the wounded on 9/11 about a month after the event. It most likely won't help unfortunately.

~~James~~ · 01-09-2015, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

I read an interview with a young Muslim doctor who helped treat the wounded on 9/11 about a month after the event. It most likely won't help unfortunately.

You're right. I can only hope it will at least have a small impact in the UK, his story is on a lot of the front pages today.

Trollheart · 01-09-2015, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James

Typical? What exactly do you mean by that? You can frame what you're saying however you want, but on a base level justifying their actions is exactly what you're doing. It shouldn't matter who the victims even were, the fact is they were brutally murdered and that's horrible. Their actions have no bearing on the moral implications of what the gunmen did. I don't think anyone is viewing them as heroes, they've more become martyrs because they died while taking full advantage of our civil liberties.
The Lee Rigby case is entirely different, but using your arguments - didn't they kill him because of his complacency and participation in an illegal war that killed hundreds of innocents and ravaged the Middle East? I wouldn't say so, because no matter how much I disagree with what Lee Rigby has done being beheaded in the street is a disgusting way to be killed. Even if Lee Rigby or the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had been truly atrocious human beings, the murderers are still the ones to blame. People should simply not be subjected to these levels of violence.

I should clarify. That "typical" was a generic one, directed at those (including but not specifically aimed at you) who choose to see any opposing view on this as tacit support for murder: "if you're not with us yer against us". It's quite hurtful to be honest. I have reiterated time and again I am NOT justifying murder, saying they deserved it or it was the thing to do. I am just trying to point out that it was not unexpected, or should not have been. You **** with people's beliefs, especially if they're already ****ed in the head, you get this sort of response. It does NOT make it RIGHT and I AM NOT SUPPORTING IT, but it's easy to see a) how it happened and b) how it could have been avoided.

The level of hypocrisy here is staggering honestly. You'd think these guys were angels who were attacked for nothing. They weren't: they were arrogant ****s who thought they could **** on people's beliefs and nothing would happen to them. There's a case to be answered for responsibility, on their side and the side of everyone who masks racism, sexism or any other ism behind a cartoon. It's still an attack, if not a physical one, and it's a red rag to an already enraged bull.

Lee Rigby didn't stand in the street with a placard saying UP YOURS MOHAMMED! which is essentially what these guys did. That's the difference.

01-09-2015, 10:56 AM	#86 (permalink)
~~James~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,483	I think this foreshadows worrying things in France, and Europe as a whole. The economic crisis has already left a good deal of the countries in the EU leaning right and blaming minorities for their troubles. This is just going to maximise that. I think the only hope is that Muslim police officer that was also killed, he is important because people can look at him and see how negative an impact something like this has on absolutely everyone.

01-09-2015, 10:57 AM	#87 (permalink)
~~Cuthbert~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Black Country Posts: 8,827	Another four people killed btw. So that takes the death toll up to 16 is it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlQJbsVs48 I'm watching on here. "At least four"