The Batlord

I at least understand what you mean. Whatever their principles, most Westerners aren't willing to die for them. Even if a lot of the extremists are willing to go so far cause they're mentally ill, or sociopathic (contrary to popular belief, sociopaths aren't cowards and actually can be quite reckless due to lack of any visceral fear response), their dedication to their cause is clearly stronger than "ours". And you gotta have some kind of respect for someone with that much commitment.

Honestly, even though I consider anyone who would walk into someplace crowded with civilians and blow themselves up to be a lunatic with a warped value of human life, I can understand their rationale in a purely strategic sense. If they can't meet the enemy on the battlefield, and the population of their target areas don't support them, then they don't have any real recourse. So, if the choice is between letting their cause die, their families suffer under the boot of what they view as oppression (not saying it isn't oppression, just emphasizing that I'm looking at THEIR point of view), and allowing their enemies to win, OR doing what they must whatever the cost, can you really tell them that they should find a more honorable way to win if it isn't effective? I'd think that there's hopefully a more effective terror tactic than killing yourself, but then again, I'm no tactician.

I'm speaking mainly of actual extremists in the Middle East fighting actual wars though, such as in Israel.

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John Wilkes Booth

fair point. i don't exactly respect their actual reasoning. more their dedication to the cause.

The Batlord

Where's my rating, bitch? Otherwise I'll probably get skipped.

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Chula Vista

A lot of the suicide bombers are not doing if "for the cause" but instead "for the rewards" - the whole 72 virgins and all. A lot of those kids aren't intelligent or educated enough to even understand what the hell the cause is really all about.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

The Batlord

I'm sure they're not just signing up for the afterlife tang. That's just incentive. Whether or not the Middle-Eastern bombers are the educated whackos we see in the west, I'm sure they're still well-indoctrinated enough to be more in it for Allah than virgins.

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Chula Vista

I read the transcript of an interview with a kid that was stopped and disarmed outside of a US base in Iraq that says otherwise. At least in that kid's case. And a lot of those bombers are piss poor, hungry, and have no hope for the future. All that changes if they blow themselves up. That's why the leaders prey on that type in lots of instances.

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“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Lord Larehip

I've been to a number of these countries and, believe it, they do it for the virgins not for allah. These are the most sexually repressed people you will EVER meet and it is just pathetic to witness.

John Wilkes Booth

are you talking to me? i have no idea what you mean tbhi can't say i agree with that. that's a bit simplistic, tbh. there are many incentives for becoming a martyr. winning the favor of allah is one. getting resources for your family is another (many terrorist groups pay the families of suicide bombers a reward). but dedication to the cause/getting a chance to strike the enemy is certainly another strong motivator as well. and also i wasn't referring strictly to suicide bombers in my post, but extremists in general. there are plenty of jihadists that aren't suicide bombers. and if you look at some of the more prominent figures - bin laden, al zawahiri, sayyid qutb, etc - they are often relatively wealthy and well educated men, even prior to becoming involved in islamic terror / extremism. it's a popular liberal talking point to doubt the sincerity of the beliefs of extremists because it naturally makes us uncomfortable to think there are people out there who really think this way. it makes us feel a lot better to think they are all either cynical manipulators who are misleading the disenfranchised for power, or oppressed pawns being manipulated by said cynics. unfortunately, the reality of the situation isn't that simple, imo.

Chula Vista

Not saying in every instance but definitely in a pretty large number of them.

__________________

“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

John Wilkes Booth

maybe for suicide bombers that is true. from what i recall hearing/reading from multiple different sources, however, jihadists (islamic fighters, not suicide bombers) in general are statistically more likely to be well educated and wealthy by their country's standards. that is what make the phenomenon so interesting to me. you ever read the looming tower? would definitely recommend it. very insightful read.