The French Massacre - Do We Stand Up For Free Speech? - Music Banter Music Banter

Go Back   Music Banter > Community Center > The Lounge > Current Events, Philosophy, & Religion
Register Blogging Today's Posts
Welcome to Music Banter Forum! Make sure to register - it's free and very quick! You have to register before you can post and participate in our discussions with over 70,000 other registered members. After you create your free account, you will be able to customize many options, you will have the full access to over 1,100,000 posts.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-12-2015, 08:42 AM   #231 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriphiel View Post
Read my post again. It had nothing to do with your personal level of violence. Try not to miss the point this time. You keep claiming that using violence against the terrorists is the best solution. The truth is that it is a temporary solution, and will only create even more destabilized political and socioeconomic factors, leading to more terrorist cells. It is a temporary fix, tempting and seemingly justified as it is, and has been proven to solve nothing.
i haven't actually advocated using violence.... i am advocating using words. we should use violence where necessary... for example to apprehend the thugs in question. i'm sure even you agree with that. beyond that i'm not advocating any type of violence so i don't know where you're getting that from.
John Wilkes Booth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 08:48 AM   #232 (permalink)
Ask me how!
 
Oriphiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: The States
Posts: 5,354
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth View Post
i really disagree. i think you are failing to take the extremists at their word. they say what they care about is islamic law. pure and simple. that's not me or the media or whoever else saying it, that's them. you can't actually blame it all on socioeconomic factors and imperialism without utterly disregarding the extremists' own message. the issues you cite are part of the cause, but only part. there is an ideological root at the core of their mentality that is a basic rejection of liberal values. i know that fact makes some of us uncomfortable but it is what it is.
You really think that terrorists just woke up one day and were like "Even though our religion is against murder, let's go kill people who disagree with us"? Thousands of years of violence and a massive array of issues have created this problem, but you keep looking for one specific group of people to blame. The funny thing is, your mentality is the same mentality that the terrorists hold, as they constantly hold groups of people accountable for things that are beyond anyone's control, and they truly believe that violence will solve the problem. But guess what? Thousands of years have passed, and the violence hasn't solved anything. In fact, it has only made things worse. As soon as you realize that you're knocking down scarecrows, you'll realize that understanding and compromise are beautiful things that seem tiny and frivolous, but have proven time and again that they are the most powerful things on earth.
Oriphiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 08:50 AM   #233 (permalink)
Ask me how!
 
Oriphiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: The States
Posts: 5,354
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth View Post
i haven't actually advocated using violence.... i am advocating using words. we should use violence where necessary... for example to apprehend the thugs in question. i'm sure even you agree with that. beyond that i'm not advocating any type of violence so i don't know where you're getting that from.
I can't believe how much you're missing the point... I'll try to explain it as simply as possible, because this is just getting ridiculous. You have said time and again that the best solution in this situation is to retaliate against the terrorists. This is supporting the use of violence. You've also advocated the deportation and killing of people whose only similarity to the terrorists is in religion. So when I talk about violence, i'm not taking a dig at your personal level of violence. I'm talking about the mentality you support. And before you get all angry about me picking apart your argument, remember that I did predict this turn of events:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriphiel View Post
Before I go, I have one more thing to say. If you choose to respond to this with some petty insult that only shows that you never actually read my post, like "lol you're a fence-sitter" or "this is just silly", then you shouldn't expect any meaningful dialogue between us to take place. That's like randomly setting a fire in your house, and then complaining when it starts burning all of your stuff up.
Oriphiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:00 AM   #234 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriphiel View Post
You really think that terrorists just woke up one day and were like "Even though our religion is against murder, let's go kill people who disagree with us"?
...is that what i said?

i think that there is a trend to reject certain modern liberal values in certain religions. it has been an ongoing conflict for some time now and it honestly isn't specific to islam. the same antipathy towards modern liberal values that islamists have is displayed in christian fundamentalists as well. it's not all just so and so's country got bombed so now they're angry. a lot of islamic terrorists are actually from wealthy backgrounds and highly educated. they believe firmly in their religious perspective and they believe that a caliphate under islam is both desirable and necessary. yes this mentality has been affected by imperialism. for example western imperialism marginalized the governments in a lot of these countries and empowered the mosques which helped fan the flames for this type of fundamentalism. but it isn't strictly about anger over imperialism... believe it or not there are a number of different world views out there and some of them don't gel all that well with modern liberalism. once again look into sayyid qutb.

he was disgusted by sexual liberation in his time spent in the US. this was one of the main things that spurred his antagonism towards western society and influenced him to write about tactics for establishing an islamic state in egypt even if that meant spilling innocent blood. he was one of the main influences for bin laden & co, who were similarly wealthy and well educated men, not impoverished kids living in gaza.

Quote:
Thousands of years of violence and a massive array of issues have created this problem, but you keep looking for one specific group of people to blame. The funny thing is, your mentality is the same mentality that the terrorists hold, as they constantly hold groups of people accountable for things that are beyond anyone's control, and they truly belief that violence will solve the problem. But guess what? Thousands of years have passed, and the violence hasn't solved anything. In fact, it has only made things worse. As soon as you realize that you're knocking down scarecrows, you'll realize that understanding and compromise are beautiful things that seem tiny and frivolous, but have proven time and again that they are the most powerful things on earth.
i'd love for you to be right tbh. but it has to happen first, then i'll concede your point. when i look at the world i just don't see it.
John Wilkes Booth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:02 AM   #235 (permalink)
Horribly Creative
 
Unknown Soldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, The Big Smoke
Posts: 8,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth View Post
no i don't realize this, i see homegrown terrorists come up with plots all the time. but even if that's true i don't see how it addresses my point. they are taking the fight to your doorstep. it's not staying overseas like you say.
Homegrown terrorists often operate differently to international terrorists, unless they are subservient to the international group.

They are taking the fight to our doorstep as we have taken it to theirs, quite logical really.

Quote:
i'm not being bossed because i'm not trying to appease them, but lets say as a society we do decide to censor ourselves as a result of this kind of thing. that is us being bossed. how else can you put it?
I call it using your noodle and keeping your yapper shut, and we all know that the freedom of the press/media had led to all kinds of things that really shouldn't be printed anyway, they have a tendency to upset all types of groups anyway.

Quote:
that's not really the point. if we back down as a society then we are being bossed around, point blank. i consider maintaining freedom of speech a sort of collective interest. i don't need to be specifically targeted by terrorists to make it seem relevant to me. i want to live in a society where freedom of expression is protected and stood up for.
You seem to have some great fear of being bossed about because you keep on bringing it up. The country where you live has one of the best freedom of expressions in the world, so I see no reason why the odd compromise shouldn't be made now and again.

If somebody was threatening to deport you to Iran to shack up with the bearded ones, then I could clearly understand your fears and concerns on this matter.

Quote:
i would love to hear more about the right key though. what does it involve specifically... self censorship perhaps?
Startlingly obvious really, by the west not being in the Middle East and leaving them to sort out their own problems, issues and economics etc. If this were the case then self-censorship as you put it would be a minor issue anyway.

Quote:
i don't think that saying we shouldn't back down from these thugs is all that extreme tbh. if you are going on about the deportation thing i already explained that was a hyperbolic rhetorical point but whatever
You seem to have the concept in your head of all or nothing against these terrorists, this is something that governments have often learnt long hard lessons from especially here in Europe.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraser.time206 View Post
If you can't deal with the fact that there are 6+ billion people in the world and none of them think exactly the same that's not my problem. Just deal with it yourself or make actual conversation. This isn't a court and I'm not some poet or prophet that needs everything I say to be analytically critiqued.
Metal Wars

Power Metal

Pounding Decibels- A Hard and Heavy History
Unknown Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:04 AM   #236 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriphiel View Post
I can't believe how much you're missing the point... I'll try to explain it as simply as possible, because this is just getting ridiculous. You have said time and again that the best solution in this situation is to retaliate against the terrorists.
...with words.

Quote:
This is supporting the use of violence.
....no.

Quote:
You've also advocated the deportation
at this point i have to assume you're being intentionally dense tbh

Quote:
and killing of people whose only similarity to the terrorists is in religion.
quote where i said this?

Quote:
So when I talk about violence, i'm not taking a dig at your personal level of violence. I'm talking about the mentality you support. And before you get all angry about me picking apart your argument, remember that I did predict this turn of events:
you're just making baseless accusations tbh. back up a single one and then i'll be impressed.
John Wilkes Booth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:09 AM   #237 (permalink)
Ask me how!
 
Oriphiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: The States
Posts: 5,354
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth View Post


i'd love for you to be right tbh. but it has to happen first, then i'll concede your point. when i look at the world i just don't see it.
It already did. The Civil Rights Movement. The leaders preached non-violence in the face of horrible treatment, and it worked. Also, remember when Ghandi convinced his fellow people to do away with violent retaliation, and to converse peacefully with the British? If they had ignored him and started using terrorism against the British in order to achieve liberation, nothing would have been solved and thousands would have perished. Time has told that understanding and respect will always solve more than blind retaliation.

Now, as agreed, you'll concede my point? And the argument is finally over?Great! Let's go get some waffles, i'm really hungry and I need a good breakfast... but, uh, I left my wallet in my other pants. Mind getting the bill, friend?
Oriphiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:13 AM   #238 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier View Post
Homegrown terrorists often operate differently to international terrorists, unless they are subservient to the international group.

They are taking the fight to our doorstep as we have taken it to theirs, quite logical really.
alright... my point is that it's not just an overseas boogeyman when it affects what you can or can't say and do in your own society.
Quote:
I call it using your noodle and keeping your yapper shut, and we all know that the freedom of the press/media had led to all kinds of things that really shouldn't be printed anyway, they have a tendency to upset all types of groups anyway.
i'll take that as a yes @ self censorship then? we'll just have to disagree cause we won't see eye to eye tbh
Quote:
You seem to have some great fear of being bossed about because you keep on bringing it up. The country where you live has one of the best freedom of expressions in the world, so I see no reason why the odd compromise shouldn't be made now and again.
how do you think we got this freedom though? it wasn't through compromise lol, that's sort of my point.
John Wilkes Booth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:15 AM   #239 (permalink)
Account Disabled
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,235
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oriphiel View Post
It already did. The Civil Rights Movement. The leaders preached non-violence in the face of horrible treatment, and it worked. Also, remember when Ghandi convinced his fellow people to do away with violent retaliation, and to converse peacefully with the British? If they had ignored him and started using terrorism against the British in order to achieve liberation, nothing would have been solved and thousands would have perished. Time has told that understanding and respect will always solve more than blind retaliation.
oh... i'm not arguing against non violence. i'm arguing against compromise in the face of thuggery and extortion.

edit - the ghandi / civil rights example is funny cause you can use it as an analogy here. what tactic did they use? passive defiance in the face of thuggery. when they were attacked with violence, they continued to use civil disobedience to get their point across. to me, saying we should compromise in the face of thuggery is akin to saying ghandi & co should have given up when they were attacked. i mean they should have known better right? what did they expect, provoking those racist white people like that? you would think they would have learned not to poke the polar bear.

Quote:
Now, as agreed, you'll concede my point? And the argument is finally over?Great! Let's go get some waffles, i'm really hungry and I need a good breakfast... but, uh, I left my wallet in my other pants. Mind getting the bill, friend?
sorry, can't do waffles. i'm on a pork-only diet out of principle.

Last edited by John Wilkes Booth; 01-12-2015 at 09:22 AM.
John Wilkes Booth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2015, 09:21 AM   #240 (permalink)
Horribly Creative
 
Unknown Soldier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, The Big Smoke
Posts: 8,265
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth View Post
how do you think we got this freedom though? it wasn't through compromise lol, that's sort of my point.
You got that freedom by getting rid of your nasty British oppressors who were telling you what to do on your own soil. This is hardly comparable to making the odd compromise with terrorists.

If fact we Brits could call you terrorists, but that's all in the past now and things move on.

btw you should stop debating with Oriphiel concerning historical matters, as she/he has clearly got you owned on that
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by eraser.time206 View Post
If you can't deal with the fact that there are 6+ billion people in the world and none of them think exactly the same that's not my problem. Just deal with it yourself or make actual conversation. This isn't a court and I'm not some poet or prophet that needs everything I say to be analytically critiqued.
Metal Wars

Power Metal

Pounding Decibels- A Hard and Heavy History
Unknown Soldier is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Similar Threads



© 2003-2024 Advameg, Inc.