The French Massacre - Do We Stand Up For Free Speech?

Chula Vista · 01-09-2015, 06:01 PM

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Originally Posted by The Batlord

That's a different question (i.e. am I a coward?). Would I have the balls to do what they did? Questionable. I also don't know that I'd have the balls to take fire in Afghanistan. But I certainly support the bravery of people who do have those balls. Regardless if I have the balls to do what those magazine dudes are doing (or whether I agree with their specific agenda), I still support their integrity for standing up for what they believe in. They may or may not be racist pricks, but I will applaud them if they don't bow down to pressure from extremists and publish their next issue with the same intent and content as their last.

Fair enough. Now crack that 11th beer man! (or is it 12th?)

Pet_Sounds · 01-09-2015, 06:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Chula Vista

I haven't read it. Although I've read the bible and seen how many people (who call themselves Christian) will distort the messages and /or cherry pick from them to further their own personal agendas.

I'm going to assume it's the same with Muslims and the Quran.

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Originally Posted by Josef K

Bits and pieces. Why?

Yeah, same here, I've only read about ten-twenty chapters (but, on an unrelated note, I have read almost all of the Bible). My dad's read all of it though.

I'm asking both out of curiosity and to learn how seriously I should take what people are saying.

Unknown Soldier · 01-09-2015, 06:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Oriphiel

I'll be brief; I don't support violence. A person can walk down a street wearing whatever shirt they want, they don't deserve to be killed. And if someone says something that offends another person, they don't deserve to be killed. Fighting against terrorists and bullies is something that will never end, but guess what?

I know, you know and most people know that violence is never the answer especially when it leads to murder, but you're dealing with an element that thinks differently and their victims surely knew that as well.

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Such is the way of life. Everything simultaneously repeats and fades away. But just because our lives are brief doesn't mean we shouldn't try to make the most out of the time we have.

That's called individual choice, but like with every serious individual choice there is normally a knock-on effect to family or friends etc and those making that choice are often faced with a sense or responsibility of whether its worth it or not. In the case of those that worked for the magazine it certainly wasn't, because their family and friends are the ones left to pick up the emotional pieces.

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And just because violence is an inevitability doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what we can to prevent needless deaths. I will always support the freedom of expression, even if people choose to use that freedom to be complete jerks towards each other. Because the best society, in my mind, isn't the one where everyone is nice to each other; it's the one where people get to decide whether they want to be nice or mean, without having to worry about someone killing them for their thoughts.

When I was about 21 I thought like this and freedom of expression was everything, but many years on compromise, experience and looking at how irrational human behaviour and programming can be, has proved a far more solid recipe in wading through life. A driver doesn't always need to floor the accelerator to get from a to b quickly, going at a sensible speed normally gets there just as quickly.

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But hey, it's the endless debate, right? Let's simply agree to disagree. But try to remember that the freedom of expression is one that you're enjoying right now, as you argue with me. Without it, we wouldn't even have the ability to be discussing this topic right now. Losing that freedom, even in small pieces over a long period of time, is a horrible tragedy.

...........and its always been enjoyed here and probably always will, but that's not to say that an individual shouldn't take care now and again in his or her actions, as they say it's always better to live and fight another day.

Trollheart · 01-09-2015, 06:27 PM

Is it wrong that while expressing these opinions I am listening to some of the most beautiful music I have heard in a long time? Well, since "Hospice" anyway...

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Originally Posted by Christian Benteke

Ridiculous & boring, I said Islam, not Muslims.

You're just avoiding the issue now. Look back to the Crusades: if muslims said "Christians have it coming" would you agree? Generalisation is the worst type of argument. There are good and bad everywhere. You can't tar everyone with your brush just cos you don't like the colour of some of them. Or something.

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That's not calling them heroes mate.

No, it's MAKING them heroes, making them martyrs, which is bull****.

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Originally Posted by Oriphiel

Common sense? Hold on a second... do you really think that these journalists didn't have common sense? Do you really think that they didn't know what they were doing, by criticizing one of the most dangerous groups on earth? Nuts to that. They knew exactly what they were doing. They were standing up to a group that routinely murders people, the only way they knew how; by using their talents as cartoonists/journalists. They put their lives on the line to show the world that people don't have to submit to bullies, and all you and Trollheart have to say is that they're foolish for having prodded the hypothetical hornet's nest?

Those hornets were going to sting people regardless of what anyone did. At least these journalists did what everyone else was too afraid to do, and took the first step in removing the nest. Terrorism groups should be shunned and held responsible for their actions.

Basically, our arguments come from our differing ideologies. I have nothing but sympathy for people who suffer simply for expressing themselves. You both obviously think that expression should have limits, which is reasonable. But as long as people don't abuse their right to express themselves by using it to hurt others, which these journalists didn't do, how can you be so cavalier about their deaths, heavily implying that they "had it coming"?

How did they stand up? By getting themselves killed? Great idea.

And please stop placing words in my mouth. I am not in the least cavalier about their deaths: I just think they need to be looked at in context. It was preventable, is what I'm saying. There's enough trouble in the world without stirring up more.

Let me ask you, all of you this: if this had been a Islamic hate rag who had posted pictures of say Jesus being ****ed by the devil, and a radical Christian group had killed them, where would your sympathies lie?

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Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds

Has anyone posting in this thread actually read the Quran?

Please note, I'm not looking to get into an argument, just curious.

No, I have not.

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Originally Posted by Christian Benteke

>>>>>>>>>>>

Went in.

Total oversimplification JWB. No wonder you broke your leg at the theatre, jumping to conclusions like that!

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Originally Posted by The Batlord

That's a different question (i.e. am I a coward?). Would I have the balls to do what they did? Questionable. I also don't know that I'd have the balls to take fire in Afghanistan. But I certainly support the bravery of people who do have those balls. Regardless if I have the balls to do what those magazine dudes are doing (or whether I agree with their specific agenda), I still support their integrity for standing up for what they believe in. They may or may not be racist pricks, but I will applaud them if they don't bow down to pressure from extremists and publish their next issue with the same intent and content as their last.

They didn't stand up for what they believe in. This is a myth being created around their "martyrdom". They were just poking the hornet's nest as they had done before. I'm sorry they were killed but there was no need for them to be.

Grindy, I did not ignore your post. Where did I? I'm writing reviews and getting dinner here. If I missed something sorry but it was not intentional.

And again, can anyone take up my point about the police? Does anyone have anything to say about their pointless deaths? Or are you all ignoring that cos you have no answer? This must be the fourth time I've challenged and nobody is coming back.

Chula Vista · 01-09-2015, 06:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Trollheart

Let me ask you, all of you this: if this had been a Islamic hate rag who had posted pictures of say Jesus being ****ed by the devil, and a radical Christian group had killed them, where would your sympathies lie?

I'm sitting here and can imagine the talking heads on cable......

"They got what they had coming to them"...

"Some things are beyond freedom of speech"...

"How can the Muslim community be in mourning"...

"Maybe now they will learn some boundaries with their hate towards us"...

**Frownland** · 01-09-2015, 06:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Trollheart

Let me ask you, all of you this: if this had been a Islamic hate rag who had posted pictures of say Jesus being ****ed by the devil, and a radical Christian group had killed them, where would your sympathies lie?

I would feel exactly the same way, even if I was a Christian. I think that I said earlier that defending free speech done within any context opens be door to defending racists and bad comedians, and while I don't support them, I'm willing to support their free speech.

Trollheart · 01-09-2015, 06:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Frownland

I would feel exactly the same way, even if I was a Christian. I think that I said earlier that defending free speech done within any context opens be door to defending racists and bad comedians, and while I don't support them, I'm willing to support their free speech.

Well then I salute you, Sir. But I think Chula has it with the post above. The double standards practiced by the West, and Christians in particular, are staggering.

**Frownland** · 01-09-2015, 06:44 PM

Maybe in the Fox news pundits side of things, but I think they'd be getting plenty of **** from the public about that.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 01-09-2015, 06:52 PM

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Originally Posted by Trollheart

You're just avoiding the issue now. Look back to the Crusades: if muslims said "Christians have it coming" would you agree? Generalisation is the worst type of argument. There are good and bad everywhere. You can't tar everyone with your brush just cos you don't like the colour of some of them. Or something.

Fuck me. What the fuck are you babbling on about?

I'm not talking about the people and the race thing has already been addressed, how many times do I have to say it. Islam and Muslims are not the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWbpS5P6Oe0

Maajid is bang on.

Also to that question you posted that Frownland just responded to, yes my response would be the same, if Christians do this I will mock them as well, I was Christened, my dad is a practising Christian and I went to Church every Sunday from the age of about 6 to 11. I've no problem mocking Christianity.

It's just funny when people mock Islam you get the bleeding heart liberals being crybabies. Not having it. It's an ideology that deserves to be mocked.

Neapolitan · 01-09-2015, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

And again, can anyone take up my point about the police? Does anyone have anything to say about their pointless deaths? Or are you all ignoring that cos you have no answer? This must be the fourth time I've challenged and nobody is coming back.

One of the two muslims went up and shot a police officer in the back of the head while the officer was down on the pavement rolling in pain from being shot prior to his execution. I think people get caught up with the cartoons like the leader of Isis saying "have a healthy new year," and the promise that someone in islam is going to be next month's chief editor, saying how atrocious that is, that they had it coming because that is mockery of islam having the leader of Isis in a cartoon. Like somehow they are not responsible for their actions, other people are. I am pretty naive about all the ins and outs of islam but don't they have something like the ten commandments like the Jewish religion that says "Thou shall not kill"? I mean I can't even fathom the comparison of cartoon of the Isis leader that at the end of the day that doesn't amount to a hill of beans compare to human life. Those two muslims weren't provoked, they were assassins. That officer was killed because those two muslim had bloodlust - period. It has nothing to do with any other excuse.

01-09-2015, 06:44 PM	#158 (permalink)
Frownland SOPHIE FOREVER Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: East of the Southern North American West Posts: 35,541	Maybe in the Fox news pundits side of things, but I think they'd be getting plenty of **** from the public about that. __________________ Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth. d e a f b o x