Oriphiel

Common sense? Hold on a second... do you really think that these journalists didn't have common sense? Do you really think that they didn't know what they were doing, by criticizing one of the most dangerous groups on earth? Nuts to that. They knew exactly what they were doing. They were standing up to a group that routinely murders people, the only way they knew how; by using their talents as cartoonists/journalists. They put their lives on the line to show the world that people don't have to submit to bullies, and all you and Trollheart have to say is that they're foolish for having prodded the hypothetical hornet's nest?

Those hornets were going to sting people regardless of what anyone did. At least these journalists did what everyone else was too afraid to do, and took the first step in removing the nest. Terrorism groups should be shunned and held responsible for their actions.

Basically, our arguments come from our differing ideologies. I have nothing but sympathy for people who suffer simply for expressing themselves. You both obviously think that expression should have limits, which is reasonable. But as long as people don't abuse their right to express themselves by using it to hurt others, which these journalists didn't do, how can you be so cavalier about their deaths, heavily implying that they "had it coming"?

Josef K

Muslims are an oppressed minority in France. You know, France, where these cartoons were published, by a French newspaper, read by French people.

Chula Vista

If you call yourself Muslim and don't follow the faith then you are not a true Muslim.

Muslim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And no, I'm not going to watch that video.

__________________

“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

Josef K

I don't think that you or I have the right to tell someone else what their religion is, so I don't know that I'd use the phrase "true Muslim". That said, I was under the impression that "Muslim" is literally just the word for someone who practices Islam (though to what degree they practice is obviously up to their own interpretation). This is really awfully pedantic of you, CB - it's kind of peripheral to the real argument here - but I guess you're saying that there's nothing wrong with your statement "Islam deserves the mocking it gets" because you're talking about the religion, not the people? That's a valid argument, I'm just not sure what you're saying.

grindy

This is a complicated and controversial topic and an in depth discussion would derail the thread, so I'll try to keep it short and simple.
Religion is not some small personal quirk, it's big and powerful and important decisions are made based on it, instead of facts.
The fact that it brings someone joy doesn't change it being nothing but wishful thinking. Building a worldview on wishful thinking and especially teaching those lies to children, who are too young to question things and are easily indoctrinated, is incredibly immoral. People should learn to acquire joy from real things and real life. I would never judge someone who has a truly horrible life and eventually turns to religion for strength, just as I wouldn't judge this person for becoming an alcoholic, but that doesn't mean alcoholism is a good thing or that you should teach it to children as a way to acquire joy and strength. Obviously religion doesn't harm your body like alcohol, but it's the same in the way of escape from reality.

__________________
A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.

Chula Vista

^^^^^

Whoa.

__________________

“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

grindy

Is that a good whoa or a bad whoa?

__________________
A smell of petroleum prevails throughout.

Josef K

Side note: I only just noticed that your avatar moves. Whoa. Like you, I'll try to keep my response brief.
The basic problem I have here is that you're painting with really broad strokes, and you refuse to acknowledge the diversity of people's beliefs and their personal relationships with religion. You start out by asserting that religion is entirely made up of lies - you couldn't possibly know that, and neither could I, but whatever, it's impossible to argue about. Next you talk about how religion is indoctrination, but of course it isn't entirely. Many people choose religion for themselves, and many people don't believe that religion should be unquestioned. You say people need to acquire joy from real things and real life, but if someone's religious experiences are real to that person, I don't see what business you have telling them they can't get joy out of it, and you also see religion as having no depth beyond blind acceptance of whatever you're told. This isn't the case. Many people are attracted to religion because it gives them a sense of community. Many religions have interesting dialogues on morality. Many people get real strength and real joy out of what you see as these fake things. I don't see why it's your place to tell other people that they can't do something that's good for them. Of course there are extremists enabled by religion, but attacking all religious people and all religions for that is a bridge too far.

Chula Vista

Neither. It's a Keanu Whoa.

__________________

“The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well,
on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away
and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

John Wilkes Booth

itt muslims can't be expected to act like civilized human beings so nobody better offend them or else you have it coming when they go jihad on your ass