Free Will - an illusion?

Chula Vista · 01-30-2015, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

When talking about the possibility that you're basically a biological machine with no control over your actions, then it's not really all that simple.

I have absolute 100% control over my actions. Don't you?

The Citizen Kane dig was superficial. No biggie. (get past the period correct ridiculous acting and the flick is as deep as they get)

WWWP · 01-30-2015, 12:38 PM

Hard determinist checking in; randomness is the unmoved mover.

The Batlord · 01-30-2015, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

I have absolute 100% control over my actions. Don't you?

Again, we're clearly working with two different definitions, both of which are correct by their own standards. The difference is, I believe mine is helpful in the scientific sense, whereas yours is merely helpful for one's peace of mind (i.e. accepting responsibility for one's actions).

Consider the justice system. By your definition, criminals have made choices that they should be punished for. They could have done "the right thing", but did not, and should pay the consequences for it.

According to my definition of free will, criminals are not responsible for their actions---the concept of responsibility being archaic in general, since it is reliant upon actions made using free will---and should therefore not be treated with the eye-for-an-eye form of justice that our society pretends that it has transcended.

Instead, criminal acts would be analyzed for possible aberrant behavior. Some crimes can be explained away for some reason or another (e.g. crimes of passion or desperation), but others are the result of mental functions that are harmful to themselves and/or society in general. Instead of punishing them, the logical solution would be to introduce stimuli targeted at correcting this behavior in much the same way that you would fix a computer.

Education for criminals without economic opportunities due to a lack of a degree or diploma. Training in trades to give criminals economic opportunities. These things are already happening, and they're a step in the right direction. They're also unintentionally working on the incompatibilist concept of free will, where the brain is a computer that involuntarily responds to stimuli.

Who knows how we can improve prisoner treatment if we recognize this concept. There may be near infinite ways to introduce positive stimuli to these people that would otherwise go ignored by clinging to the common, compatibilist concept of free will. We might also be able to get rid of the stigma attached to criminals that encourages people to treat them as failures and second-class citizens not worthy of our help.

Chula Vista · 01-30-2015, 01:02 PM

*farts*

FREE. WILL.

The Batlord · 01-30-2015, 02:03 PM

Well, it's hard to argue with that.

Trollheart · 01-30-2015, 02:41 PM

This discussion is too deep and involved for me to get into, but I would like to say that for someone who is generally taken for a videogame-playing, metal-listening headbanging slacker, you argue your case well Batty. You come across as much more intelligent and thoughtful than many of us, myself included, give you credit for. Ever considered a debating society?

The Batlord · 01-30-2015, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

This discussion is too deep and involved for me to get into, but I would like to say that for someone who is generally taken for a videogame-playing, metal-listening headbanging slacker, you argue your case well Batty. You come across as much more intelligent and thoughtful than many of us, myself included, give you credit for. Ever considered a debating society?

Nah. I'm perfectly happy just knowing I'm smarter than all of you dumb ****s.

Dylstew · 01-30-2015, 04:03 PM

Speaking of free will, I keep getting intrusive thoughts, it's really annoying. It's so annoying how it seems like my brain is in control of me, and not the other way around. It sometimes seems to have opinions different from mine.
Same goes for the frequent lucid dreams I have, I'm barely in control.

I also hate how it's impossible to stop thinking, since I automatically overthink things, usually negatively.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 01-30-2015, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista

I have absolute 100% control over my actions. Don't you?

who is the "i" in this statement? are you your entire body, or just your brain, or just some manifestation of consciousness within your brain, etc?

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 01-30-2015, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Again, we're clearly working with two different definitions, both of which are correct by their own standards. The difference is, I believe mine is helpful in the scientific sense, whereas yours is merely helpful for one's peace of mind (i.e. accepting responsibility for one's actions).

Consider the justice system. By your definition, criminals have made choices that they should be punished for. They could have done "the right thing", but did not, and should pay the consequences for it.

According to my definition of free will, criminals are not responsible for their actions---the concept of responsibility being archaic in general, since it is reliant upon actions made using free will---and should therefore not be treated with the eye-for-an-eye form of justice that our society pretends that it has transcended.

Instead, criminal acts would be analyzed for possible aberrant behavior. Some crimes can be explained away for some reason or another (e.g. crimes of passion or desperation), but others are the result of mental functions that are harmful to themselves and/or society in general. Instead of punishing them, the logical solution would be to introduce stimuli targeted at correcting this behavior in much the same way that you would fix a computer.

Education for criminals without economic opportunities due to a lack of a degree or diploma. Training in trades to give criminals economic opportunities. These things are already happening, and they're a step in the right direction. They're also unintentionally working on the incompatibilist concept of free will, where the brain is a computer that involuntarily responds to stimuli.

Who knows how we can improve prisoner treatment if we recognize this concept. There may be near infinite ways to introduce positive stimuli to these people that would otherwise go ignored by clinging to the common, compatibilist concept of free will. We might also be able to get rid of the stigma attached to criminals that encourages people to treat them as failures and second-class citizens not worthy of our help.

personally i prefer the concept of an "escape from ny" style prison colony instead of rehabilitating prisoners for re-entry into society.

01-30-2015, 01:02 PM	#44 (permalink)
Chula Vista Toasted Poster Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: SoCal by way of Boston Posts: 11,332	farts FREE. WILL. __________________ “The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be.”

01-30-2015, 02:41 PM	#46 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	This discussion is too deep and involved for me to get into, but I would like to say that for someone who is generally taken for a videogame-playing, metal-listening headbanging slacker, you argue your case well Batty. You come across as much more intelligent and thoughtful than many of us, myself included, give you credit for. Ever considered a debating society? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

01-30-2015, 12:38 PM	#42 (permalink)
WWWP county fair energy Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,773	Hard determinist checking in; randomness is the unmoved mover.

01-30-2015, 04:03 PM	#48 (permalink)
Dylstew Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 1,366	Speaking of free will, I keep getting intrusive thoughts, it's really annoying. It's so annoying how it seems like my brain is in control of me, and not the other way around. It sometimes seems to have opinions different from mine. Same goes for the frequent lucid dreams I have, I'm barely in control. I also hate how it's impossible to stop thinking, since I automatically overthink things, usually negatively.