The many benefits of a child-free life

WWWP · 11-25-2013, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie

So it's an extension of Schopenhauer's philosophy? I've read one of his books, On The Suffering Of The World. He seemed a clever guy and quite insightful but rather depressive with it. Much like Nietzsche in that respect.

Personally, I have a hard time putting my faith in any philosophy that can't make it's creator happy. It is my firm belief that Nature creates everything for it's own good, sure sometimes thing go wrong and things are born with defects and/or diseases, but generally speaking we are all equipped to experience the joy of life. Strip away the heavy thinking, the desire to make sense of everything, the thirst for knowledge, and all abstractions of the mind and I believe we get down to the base human condition, a condition of joy.

Anyway, like I alluded to earlier, I'm not putting your ideas down. Merely presenting an alternative.

I wouldn't call it an extension, he was just an original proponent. I am a big supporter of nature, I just happen to think that sentient life is one of those things that went wrong. If none of it existed the world would be a better place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

I just wanted to put that out there, bizarre isn't the same as insane but it dawned on me that it was less than polite.

I don't actually disagree with the idea that imposing life is imposing harm, when it gets right down to it. I know what you're saying there. I just disagree that imposing harm is an absolute wrong. If the harm comes bundled with all the joys of existence, then I can't see it as a bad deal in most cases.

And when I think about the fact that our brains are a part of the tiny tiny percentage of matter in the known universe with the capacity for consciousness, I usually think of that as an amazing privilege rather than a burden to bear, though it is admittedly both.

I don't expect any of that to change your mind, that's just where I'm at with it.

The thing I get stuck on, though, is how much good ultimately outweighs the bad? To borrow a phrase I've already used in this thread, how many sunsets make up for the Holocaust?

I agree with you that the development of consciousness is amazing. The world is a marvelous place, but one that would be better off without us in it. It would still be marvelous without those to marvel at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyislingering

And there's another reason I don't find breeding to be a great idea. I already have to deal with the pain of knowing that the people in my life will die someday; I don't want to risk losing a child. Better to save the money it takes to raise a kid than to lose it to some unforeseen tragedy. (Funerals are pretty expensive, too.)

That hasn't stopped a number of us from trying, whether it be in the past or recently. Nobody ever talks about that sort of thing, but I get the feeling there are some among us (even in this thread) who have legitimately considered or attempted suicide.

Can confirm, takes two hands to count the number of my attempts.

ladyislingering · 11-25-2013, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard Donner

Can confirm, takes two hands to count the number of my attempts.

real talk.

it's been a long time for me, but I can definitely agree there.

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 11-25-2013, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyislingering

And there's another reason I don't find breeding to be a great idea. I already have to deal with the pain of knowing that the people in my life will die someday; I don't want to risk losing a child. Better to save the money it takes to raise a kid than to lose it to some unforeseen tragedy. (Funerals are pretty expensive, too.)

That hasn't stopped a number of us from trying, whether it be in the past or recently. Nobody ever talks about that sort of thing, but I get the feeling there are some among us (even in this thread) who have legitimately considered or attempted suicide.

cant live life afraid of unlikely events

but for some reason youre still livin. we all have that choice to keep livin or to die right now and weve all chose to live. so the sufferin cant be that bad. the glory outweighs the suffer

this is all reminded me of that song by coheed

ladyislingering · 11-25-2013, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by butthead aka 216

cant live life afraid of unlikely events

but for some reason youre still livin. we all have that choice to keep livin or to die right now and weve all chose to live. so the sufferin cant be that bad. the glory outweighs the suffer

this is all reminded me of that song by coheed

But I can certainly prevent some of those things from ever happening by preventing the source from ever existing.

For some of us it's definitely a miracle that we're here today, though there are definitely some very specific parts of my life that are keeping me alive, personally.

Mr. Charlie · 11-25-2013, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard Donner

The thing I get stuck on, though, is how much good ultimately outweighs the bad? To borrow a phrase I've already used in this thread, how many sunsets make up for the Holocaust?

Do good and bad actually exist or are they nought but mental abstractions, human constructs designed out of ignorance? I think we all label things good and bad, but do they exist outside our mind?

Regarding the holocaust, maybe that was the price the human race had to pay to avert an even greater tragedy? Maybe that was the wake up call the world needed to prevent it happening again. If indeed it doesn't happen again. We never really know whether something is for the better or for the worse, we cannot predict the future, we certainly cannot predict alternative futures that might have come about had x happened or y not happened. You know what I mean?

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-25-2013, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Charlie

Indeed. It makes one wonder whether consciousness is an integral part of the universe, whether the universe 'wants' to be conscious, or maybe want is a poor choice of words, if the universe is arranged in such a way that consciousness is common and unavoidable. Or is consciousness a crazy fluke that happened amidst crazy odds. Either way it's pretty remarkable that the same stuff in rocks and stars and water can evolve to the point where it can ask 'what am I'. It's quite nuts.

Yea. The system does seem set up for life if not consciousness. The downside is that for life to evolve there needed to be an incentive that drove it in one direction or another, and that is where pain and suffering finds its niche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard Donner

The thing I get stuck on, though, is how much good ultimately outweighs the bad? To borrow a phrase I've already used in this thread, how many sunsets make up for the Holocaust?

I understand that. It's not really fair because some people/creatures get a **** deal and then others get to enjoy existence. But honestly the alternative of a dead universe is to me so meaningless and boring that it doesn't actually take that many sunsets to make life seem like the preferable option. And I happen to think that we have an abundance of sunsets. Every tragedy is given its weight by the fact that it casts a shadow over the joys of existence. You can't do that much harm to creatures with nothing to lose.

Quote:

I agree with you that the development of consciousness is amazing. The world is a marvelous place, but one that would be better off without us in it. It would still be marvelous without those to marvel at it.

That's just a difference of perspective then. This will sound anthropocentric but I think the human brain is the most impressive and worthwhile thing this planet ever produced.

anticipation · 11-25-2013, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

That's just a difference of perspective then. This will sound anthropocentric but I think the human brain is the most impressive and worthwhile thing this planet ever produced.

Photosynthesis, the eyes of the Mantis shrimp, diamonds. All of those things are up there along with the human brain, maybe throw pizza into the mix too.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 11-25-2013, 10:36 PM

That just depends on your criteria. Photosynthesis is definitely more important. It's just not quite as awe inspiring to me.

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 11-26-2013, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyislingering

But I can certainly prevent some of those things from ever happening by preventing the source from ever existing.

For some of us it's definitely a miracle that we're here today, though there are definitely some very specific parts of my life that are keeping me alive, personally.

and i can prevent a fiery car wreck with an oil tanker by never drivin. if thats your reasonin for not havin kids, bein scared of an unlikely event, then thats not the best thinkin in my opinion. and i know ya listed other reasons and again ya dont gotta justfify to anyone but i think when ppl say 'wait til your older' or 'things will change' its not necessarily arrogance its just that theyve seen what a few yrs or life experiences can do to a person.

djchameleon · 11-26-2013, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkyard Donner

I think that people are under the impression that I am arguing that there is no good in the world and I am unable to enjoy things - that is not the case (and yes, DJ, I am chronically depressed but I do not appreciate my views being written off as such). I'm not saying that everyone who finds life enjoyable is a happy fool. My philosophy merely prohibits me from assuming I have the right to impose existence onto another being. Yes, some people are born into good circumstances and some into bad. People raise good children and people raise bad children. Sometimes children grow up to help humanity and sometimes children grow up to shoot up a school (nature vs. nurture is another argument entirely that I will not approach at this time). Procreation is a gamble. It's Russian roulette, really, but rather than aiming the gun at yourself you're aiming it at your offspring.

I didn't bring up the chronic depression line to make light of your views but it was a throw away comment that ended up helping me understand why you felt that way. The pessimistic attitude that you have towards life. It just all started to click and that's why I said it. I didn't mean for you to take it as an insult.

Also I really don't agree with that whole Russian roulette analogy. I don't know if you cleared it up in later posts or someone else touched on it but it's pretty bad.

You can get genetic testing ahead of time to see the likelihood of your offspring being born with certain diseases and even if they were. I'm on the complete opposite spectrum of you on this argument and I feel like they should still come into this world and experience life even if it might not be the best life for them. I don't get how you can define life and put it into a little box where only certain circumstances are needed for someone's life to be good. The love from their family and cultural differences should determine this. I don't agree with antinatalism's point of views at all. It basically comes down to shaming people for wanting to have children and you might as well be shaming women for wanting to have an abortion.

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11-25-2013, 10:36 PM	#178 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	That just depends on your criteria. Photosynthesis is definitely more important. It's just not quite as awe inspiring to me.