Religious Freedom v. Everyone Else's

~~Lord Larehip~~ · 09-01-2013, 11:48 AM

You may have read about the measles outbreak in Texas at the Kenneth Copeland ministry. The spokespeople for the ministry are saying that they are encouraging members to get vaccinated and that they do not and have never discouraged the practice. Former members tell a different story. They say that while vaccinations were not forbidden within the membership, it very definitely IS discouraged. Getting vaccinated is the equivalent of doubting god, they say. Copeland's ministry stresses faith over medicine, over science. Copeland himself has made many statements disparaging vaccinations to the point where it is clear the ministry opposes the practice and discourages it among membership.

Here's a link to the story:

Texas measles outbreak linked to church

A similar outbreak occurred last year after the Super Bowl:

Measles outbreak after Super Bowl ignites vaccine debate - On Parenting - The Washington Post

These stories point out that immunizations are opposed in this country by a wide variety of religious sects and denominations and conspiracy kooks. So the question is, should immunization within religious communities be compulsory?

Of course, this opens up a huge debate over how much control the govt should have in the lives of its citizens but, by the same token, refusal to be immunized affects everybody. They can come into contact with people outside their communities who have not been immunized, particularly children, especially in poorer areas.

Back in the 50s, polio was nearly eradicated after Jonas Salk came up with a vaccine but recently polio has made a comeback:

WHO to Announce Polio Resurgence a Global Health Emergency | Global Biodefense

While this polio resurgence is basically limited to poor nations like Nigeria, religious communities in America can introduce the disease to people if they travel abroad to countries where it is rampant and contract it themselves. This is precisely what happened at the Copeland ministries--someone picked up the measles virus while in Indonesia and then brought it to Texas where it found a fertile ground in which to sprout and spread--a religious community that frowns on immunization.

The following CDC article describes what happens when immunizations are halted:

Vaccines: Vac-Gen/What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations

The scarier scenario is that some of these diseases once thought eradicated are not only coming back but are coming back stronger than before and are themselves immune to the standard drugs. We have seen strains of super polio, super measles and super tuberculosis.

Emergence of new forms of totally drug-resistant tuber... [Chest. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI

The result could be rampant epidemics of new diseases we cannot fight. The idea of facing another Black Death might seem remote but we actually live on the verge of such a thing occurring again. The best way to combat this scenario is through widespread immunization.

So, should religious freedom give religious groups the right to refuse immunization against deadly and/or contagious diseases? Or should the govt have the right to enforce compulsory immunizations of every person in the country?

Moreover, what should we do with people who refuse to get immunizations (because you KNOW it will happen)?

Trollheart · 09-01-2013, 12:52 PM

It's very hard to force people to do something they don't want to do, but you're right: here it's a culture of forbidding the vaccination and one person, or body, is speaking for how many? Hundreds? Thousands? Maybe some of them want to get the vaccines but aren't allowed. I don't know: where does it say in the Bible "Thou shalt not vaccinate"? Isn't this like those other cultures and sects who refuse to allow surgery, even if it's a life-threatening disease that surgery would cure?

The idea of one person making a decision that not only affects all those who follow them, but others outside the circle too, is worrying and without question, the more people who refuse, or are not allowed, to get vaccinated the bigger the chance of the disease growing, strengthening, even mutating.

But religious freedoms are so cherished and protected in America, how do you enforce this, if you do? What's the thinking behind it anyway? God will save you so science need not bother? Have they ever thought that maybe God, if he exists, could be working through science? That the one is not necessarily the enemy of the other?

Sorry, I have no answers, just comments...

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 09-01-2013, 10:48 PM

Well, I think if vaccines were being mandated for everyone then religious freedom wouldn't (or shouldn't) supersede that. For example, religious parents have been charged with child neglect for depriving the child of medical care based on religious convictions. Religious freedom shouldn't extend to breaking common laws.

As to whether or not the federal govt could mandate vaccines, I don't know. I don't know enough about that sort of thing to say. What I do know is that if they ever tried to do so, people will throw a bitch fit. Not just religious people are anti-vaccine. There are a whole slew of conspiratorial-minded people who are already suspicious of vaccines. Mandating them will just confirm for these people that NWO is here.

~~Lord Larehip~~ · 09-02-2013, 10:10 AM

The problem is, while the RW anti-vaxxers are usually religious (though not always), there are a sizable number of LW anti-vaxxers whose views have little to no basis in religion or religious freedom. One guy, Chris Mooney, even goes so far as to say that ant-vax is predominantly a left wing phenomenon. He has little to support him but he does score a few points. Some liberal Hollywood celebs have gone public as being anti-vax and the Whole Foods crowd is overwhelmingly anti-vax. I also found this page on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Anti-...353529?sk=info

But all the available research shows that anti-vaxxers occupy the RW more than the left but not by anything resembling a vast majority. It's almost 50-50, in fact.

Public Support For Vaccination Remains Strong

Plus politicians of both red and blue persuasion have come out anti-vax and even allowed their states to opt out of mandatory vax in the schools. I see this as disastrous.

I'm worried most by missionaries who want to help (read as "brainwash into accepting Christianity") people in poor countries. They are most at risk to bring something back if they are not vaccinated. But we also have the Peace Corps types who want to go to these countries and build schools and hospitals and what not--all well and good but get your ass vaccinated first or don't come back.

I think that might be a good start. But when I read all these blogs talking about the numbers of people who have died or are permanently bed-ridden (or blind or deaf or impotent or diabetic) after getting vaccines, I realize what an uphill climb this is that we have these jackasses in our society who actually believe this stuff. It's the old "Every time I get a flu shot, I end up getting the flu" BS. That may be, but you can't get the flu from a flu shot. There's no correlation. But try telling them that.

Burning Down · 09-02-2013, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Larehip

I think that might be a good start. But when I read all these blogs talking about the numbers of people who have died or are permanently bed-ridden (or blind or deaf or impotent or diabetic) after getting vaccines, I realize what an uphill climb this is that we have these jackasses in our society who actually believe this stuff. It's the old "Every time I get a flu shot, I end up getting the flu" BS. That may be, but you can't get the flu from a flu shot. There's no correlation. But try telling them that.

It's the same as trying to tell the people who think that vaccines cause autism, that they DON'T. Even after the doctor in the UK who published that thesis was proved wrong and permanently stripped of his medical license (not allowed to practice in Britain or anywhere anymore), they don't budge on their opinions. Autism has been around since before vaccines were even invented, but those kids were just labelled as "invalids" and put into asylums.

~~Lord Larehip~~ · 09-02-2013, 10:23 AM

Yeah, I read about that guy.

If you can go on FB, read that page I posted a link to. It gives an excellent insight into the minds of anti-vaxxers. Basically, it's "I'm not going to bloat the profits of the healthcare mega-corporations who are out to destroy our way of life and all the pro-vaxxers are making a profit unlike all the anti-vaxxers" rather than any real evidence that vaccines are no good. Then this individual admits that if you are pro-vax, you will not be allowed to post your "hogwash" on her page. Hmm...afraid of a dose of truth even more than a vaccine, sounds like.

But it just goes the show the lengths these people will go to shut you out. They don't want to listen--period.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 09-02-2013, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Larehip

The problem is, while the RW anti-vaxxers are usually religious (though not always), there are a sizable number of LW anti-vaxxers whose views have little to no basis in religion or religious freedom. One guy, Chris Mooney, even goes so far as to say that ant-vax is predominantly a left wing phenomenon. He has little to support him but he does score a few points. Some liberal Hollywood celebs have gone public as being anti-vax and the Whole Foods crowd is overwhelmingly anti-vax. I also found this page on Facebook:

As a liberal, irrational leftists are particularly annoying to me. Another issue where the 'whole foods crowd' is decisively anti-science is the GMO debate. It seems any time 'big corporations' are involved something evil must be at hand.

Black Francis · 09-02-2013, 01:27 PM

This seems like crazy religious fanaticism which always leads to no good.
if they don't wanna get vaccinated because they wanna leave it to god FINE let them live on a prayer but put their asses in quarantine!

Then when they see for themselves it's not working and they keep getting sicker im sure one of them will have a revelation from god that says "Get the vaccine you idiot" and the rest will follow like good little sheeps

09-01-2013, 11:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
~~Lord Larehip~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 899	Religious Freedom v. Everyone Else's You may have read about the measles outbreak in Texas at the Kenneth Copeland ministry. The spokespeople for the ministry are saying that they are encouraging members to get vaccinated and that they do not and have never discouraged the practice. Former members tell a different story. They say that while vaccinations were not forbidden within the membership, it very definitely IS discouraged. Getting vaccinated is the equivalent of doubting god, they say. Copeland's ministry stresses faith over medicine, over science. Copeland himself has made many statements disparaging vaccinations to the point where it is clear the ministry opposes the practice and discourages it among membership. Here's a link to the story: Texas measles outbreak linked to church A similar outbreak occurred last year after the Super Bowl: Measles outbreak after Super Bowl ignites vaccine debate - On Parenting - The Washington Post These stories point out that immunizations are opposed in this country by a wide variety of religious sects and denominations and conspiracy kooks. So the question is, should immunization within religious communities be compulsory? Of course, this opens up a huge debate over how much control the govt should have in the lives of its citizens but, by the same token, refusal to be immunized affects everybody. They can come into contact with people outside their communities who have not been immunized, particularly children, especially in poorer areas. Back in the 50s, polio was nearly eradicated after Jonas Salk came up with a vaccine but recently polio has made a comeback: WHO to Announce Polio Resurgence a Global Health Emergency \| Global Biodefense While this polio resurgence is basically limited to poor nations like Nigeria, religious communities in America can introduce the disease to people if they travel abroad to countries where it is rampant and contract it themselves. This is precisely what happened at the Copeland ministries--someone picked up the measles virus while in Indonesia and then brought it to Texas where it found a fertile ground in which to sprout and spread--a religious community that frowns on immunization. The following CDC article describes what happens when immunizations are halted: Vaccines: Vac-Gen/What Would Happen If We Stopped Vaccinations The scarier scenario is that some of these diseases once thought eradicated are not only coming back but are coming back stronger than before and are themselves immune to the standard drugs. We have seen strains of super polio, super measles and super tuberculosis. Emergence of new forms of totally drug-resistant tuber... [Chest. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI The result could be rampant epidemics of new diseases we cannot fight. The idea of facing another Black Death might seem remote but we actually live on the verge of such a thing occurring again. The best way to combat this scenario is through widespread immunization. So, should religious freedom give religious groups the right to refuse immunization against deadly and/or contagious diseases? Or should the govt have the right to enforce compulsory immunizations of every person in the country? Moreover, what should we do with people who refuse to get immunizations (because you KNOW it will happen)? Last edited by Lord Larehip; 09-01-2013 at 11:57 AM.

09-01-2013, 12:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,994	It's very hard to force people to do something they don't want to do, but you're right: here it's a culture of forbidding the vaccination and one person, or body, is speaking for how many? Hundreds? Thousands? Maybe some of them want to get the vaccines but aren't allowed. I don't know: where does it say in the Bible "Thou shalt not vaccinate"? Isn't this like those other cultures and sects who refuse to allow surgery, even if it's a life-threatening disease that surgery would cure? The idea of one person making a decision that not only affects all those who follow them, but others outside the circle too, is worrying and without question, the more people who refuse, or are not allowed, to get vaccinated the bigger the chance of the disease growing, strengthening, even mutating. But religious freedoms are so cherished and protected in America, how do you enforce this, if you do? What's the thinking behind it anyway? God will save you so science need not bother? Have they ever thought that maybe God, if he exists, could be working through science? That the one is not necessarily the enemy of the other? Sorry, I have no answers, just comments... __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

09-02-2013, 01:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
Black Francis Out of Place Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: in an abstract house Posts: 4,111	This seems like crazy religious fanaticism which always leads to no good. if they don't wanna get vaccinated because they wanna leave it to god FINE let them live on a prayer but put their asses in quarantine! Then when they see for themselves it's not working and they keep getting sicker im sure one of them will have a revelation from god that says "Get the vaccine you idiot" and the rest will follow like good little sheeps __________________ "Hey Kids you got to meet the MIGHTY PIXIES!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbRbCtIgW3A

09-01-2013, 10:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	Well, I think if vaccines were being mandated for everyone then religious freedom wouldn't (or shouldn't) supersede that. For example, religious parents have been charged with child neglect for depriving the child of medical care based on religious convictions. Religious freedom shouldn't extend to breaking common laws. As to whether or not the federal govt could mandate vaccines, I don't know. I don't know enough about that sort of thing to say. What I do know is that if they ever tried to do so, people will throw a bitch fit. Not just religious people are anti-vaccine. There are a whole slew of conspiratorial-minded people who are already suspicious of vaccines. Mandating them will just confirm for these people that NWO is here.

09-02-2013, 10:10 AM	#4 (permalink)
~~Lord Larehip~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 899	The problem is, while the RW anti-vaxxers are usually religious (though not always), there are a sizable number of LW anti-vaxxers whose views have little to no basis in religion or religious freedom. One guy, Chris Mooney, even goes so far as to say that ant-vax is predominantly a left wing phenomenon. He has little to support him but he does score a few points. Some liberal Hollywood celebs have gone public as being anti-vax and the Whole Foods crowd is overwhelmingly anti-vax. I also found this page on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Anti-...353529?sk=info But all the available research shows that anti-vaxxers occupy the RW more than the left but not by anything resembling a vast majority. It's almost 50-50, in fact. Public Support For Vaccination Remains Strong Plus politicians of both red and blue persuasion have come out anti-vax and even allowed their states to opt out of mandatory vax in the schools. I see this as disastrous. I'm worried most by missionaries who want to help (read as "brainwash into accepting Christianity") people in poor countries. They are most at risk to bring something back if they are not vaccinated. But we also have the Peace Corps types who want to go to these countries and build schools and hospitals and what not--all well and good but get your ass vaccinated first or don't come back. I think that might be a good start. But when I read all these blogs talking about the numbers of people who have died or are permanently bed-ridden (or blind or deaf or impotent or diabetic) after getting vaccines, I realize what an uphill climb this is that we have these jackasses in our society who actually believe this stuff. It's the old "Every time I get a flu shot, I end up getting the flu" BS. That may be, but you can't get the flu from a flu shot. There's no correlation. But try telling them that.

09-02-2013, 10:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
~~Lord Larehip~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 899	Yeah, I read about that guy. If you can go on FB, read that page I posted a link to. It gives an excellent insight into the minds of anti-vaxxers. Basically, it's "I'm not going to bloat the profits of the healthcare mega-corporations who are out to destroy our way of life and all the pro-vaxxers are making a profit unlike all the anti-vaxxers" rather than any real evidence that vaccines are no good. Then this individual admits that if you are pro-vax, you will not be allowed to post your "hogwash" on her page. Hmm...afraid of a dose of truth even more than a vaccine, sounds like. But it just goes the show the lengths these people will go to shut you out. They don't want to listen--period.