2 British girls arrested for drug smuggling in Peru

Unknown Soldier · 08-25-2013, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

You don't think that decreasing the punishment for smuggling would make it easier for the barons to traffic larger quantities and make more money? I understand you saying the sentences in themselves aren't stopping trafficking, but we would need to implement lax sentences for mules in order to compare the quantity trafficked under those conditions with the current conditions before we could rule that the sentences have no impact on trafficking.

In theory it would but in practice I doubt it. The same amount would flow through to meet the demand in say Europe but even more would be seized by officials to get more money from the barons. To drastically change the supply and demand of the drug, a much larger amount of new users would be needed. Most of these new users would probably be the users of cheaper drugs, that would be attracted to use cocaine as its price would've gone down, due to more of it in the market place. On the flip side of the coin, greater cocaine use would see the usage of other drugs decrease, thus affecting their trade in turn. It then raises the question, is it better to have more cocaine users and less users of other drugs or vice versa, again that's a different debate.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-25-2013, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

In theory it would but in practice I doubt it. The same amount would flow through to meet the demand in say Europe but even more would be seized by officials to get more money from the barons.

I'm not following you here. How do you figure?

Quote:

To drastically change the supply and demand of the drug, a much larger amount of new users would be needed. Most of these new users would probably be the users of cheaper drugs, that would be attracted to use cocaine as its price would've gone down, due to more of it in the market place. On the flip side of the coin, greater cocaine use would see the usage of other drugs decrease, thus affecting their trade in turn. It then raises the question, is it better to have more cocaine users and less users of other drugs or vice versa, again that's a different debate.

I don't think there's any shortage on the demand side. If cartels could increase the supply they'd have no trouble finding customers.

Unknown Soldier · 08-25-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

I'm not following you here. How do you figure?

In that if more cocaine was being smuggled out and customs officials and police officers were aware of this, they would probably demand an even bigger pay-off.

**Janszoon** · 08-25-2013, 10:29 AM

I'd just like to say that every time I see the title of this thread, I think it says "2 British girls one cup" for about half a second.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-25-2013, 06:11 PM

You think bribes would absorb any possible increase in their profit margin?

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 08-26-2013, 11:34 AM

im more on the side of batlord and unknown solider here but this is a good discussion

i think the sentences should be lighter across the board with drugs. if they are first time, non violent offenders, 5 year maximum.

imo there are ppl who will take the risks regardless it they know the penalties are a 5 yr sentence or a life sentence. there are some ppl who are just never goin to be deterred and thats obvious because look at the thousands of crimes that happen yearly where the criminal knows that being caught results in life in prison

i dont know much about this specific case or these chicks. but if they are first time offenders and non violent in their crime, it sounds like an excessiv epunishment. i dunno i see my country's crime rate and rate of imprisonment at astronomical numbers and i dont think thats doing anyone any good

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-27-2013, 10:46 AM

Sure, but since he was pointing to corrupt airport officials I got the impression we were talking about a commercial jet and not a private plane.

Unknown Soldier · 08-27-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

I disagree. The fact that the existing penalty doesn't eliminate smuggling simply means there is some subset of the population that is willing to take on the risk for the money involved. If that risk were reduced, not only would more people be willing to take it on, but the cartels could pay them less to do so, thus smuggling more contraband for the same amount of money.

Firstly, this is not as straight-forward as you're implying. For example, if a prison sentence of 25 years for murder is dropped to say 15 years, I wouldn't say that the murder rate of a country would go up, for the simple reason that the mindset of a murderer isn't focused on getting caught. On the other hand, if we're talking about shoplifters who were getting reduced sentences for stealing, then I'd agree lower sentences would encourage greater stealing as it's a casual crime. Now if we look at drug trafficking, again a person that does this is of a particular mindset that has to often travel halfway around the world to commit the crime and take a huge personal risk in an often alien environment and is often aware that on completion of the crime, they may not even get fully paid for their services, along with having nerves of steel (the two accused girls excepted here) For these reasons alone, a rigid 5 year community programme in the country where the crime is committed is as good a deterrent as 25 years in prison, because if people are willing to risk 25 years, it shows that the penalty is ineffective.

To be honest I'm punching in the dark here with you, as I don't know how you actually feel about the crime that has been committed (innocent til proven guilty of course) as you've questioned certain aspects of what I've said, without actually stating your own personal opinion (if you have then excuse me)

Quote:

I don't know the situation that well, but wouldn't the airport officials on both sides (source country and destination country) need to be corrupt for that idea to be true? How would corrupt Peruvian officials help get smugglers through US customs, for example?

I'm not sure if you've understood what I was implying here. Firstly in this case, Peruvian officials are only responsible for what goes on in their own country, and by and large here in Europe customs officials to a degree rely on the efficiency of the Peruvian system. I've flown in and out of a number of Latin American countries over the years and one thing is certain, they are stringent on both locals and foreigners when leaving the country on long haul flights, but when the passengers reach European soil, all EU citizens basically walk through, with the chances of being stopped very slim, but that is not the case say for a Peruvian, who as a non-EU citizen will then face another lot of stringent checks for a second time, for this reason alone, the drug barons prefer European mules. So you see, the Peruvian officials have created a bottleneck at the airport, which should be able to nab nearly all kinds of smuggling if they weren't so corrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

Sure, but since he was pointing to corrupt airport officials I got the impression we were talking about a commercial jet and not a private plane.

I've not even thought about private planes, but then again I don't much know about custom controls for them.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-27-2013, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Firstly, this is not as straight-forward as you're implying. For example, if a prison sentence of 25 years for murder is dropped to say 15 years, I wouldn't say that the murder rate of a country would go up, for the simple reason that the mindset of a murderer isn't focused on getting caught. On the other hand, if we're talking about shoplifters who were getting reduced sentences for stealing, then I'd agree lower sentences would encourage greater stealing as it's a casual crime. Now if we look at drug trafficking, again a person that does this is of a particular mindset that has to often travel halfway around the world to commit the crime and take a huge personal risk in an often alien environment and is often aware that on completion of the crime, they may not even get fully paid for their services, along with having nerves of steel (the two accused girls excepted here) For these reasons alone, a rigid 5 year community programme in the country where the crime is committed is as good a deterrent as 25 years in prison, because if people are willing to risk 25 years, it shows that the penalty is ineffective.

It seems like with a for-profit crime like drug smuggling, risk assessment would be a pretty significant part of deciding whether or not one is willing to do it. They would most certainly be thinking about getting caught, so I don't think the murder vs theft analogy really works here.

Quote:

To be honest I'm punching in the dark here with you, as I don't know how you actually feel about the crime that has been committed (innocent til proven guilty of course) as you've questioned certain aspects of what I've said, without actually stating your own personal opinion (if you have then excuse me)

I don't care that much about the crime. I've only questioned practical aspects of what you've said, as that's more interesting to me than what happens to these two women. If anything I'd say the worst part of the crime is providing bread and butter for the cartels.

Quote:

I'm not sure if you've understood what I was implying here. Firstly in this case, Peruvian officials are only responsible for what goes on in their own country, and by and large here in Europe customs officials to a degree rely on the efficiency of the Peruvian system. I've flown in and out of a number of Latin American countries over the years and one thing is certain, they are stringent on both locals and foreigners when leaving the country on long haul flights, but when the passengers reach European soil, all EU citizens basically walk through, with the chances of being stopped very slim, but that is not the case say for a Peruvian, who as a non-EU citizen will then face another lot of stringent checks for a second time, for this reason alone, the drug barons prefer European mules. So you see, the Peruvian officials have created a bottleneck at the airport, which should be able to nab nearly all kinds of smuggling if they weren't so corrupt.

That makes sense. I did understand what you were implying, but I didn't know how the European customs worked.

Unknown Soldier · 08-27-2013, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

It seems like with a for-profit crime like drug smuggling, risk assessment would be a pretty significant part of deciding whether or not one is willing to do it. They would most certainly be thinking about getting caught, so I don't think the murder vs theft analogy really works here.

The analogy was just used, to demonstrate the mindsets of the perpetrators involved here. Sure one is for economic profit and the other usually for selfish emotional profit (depending on the circumstances). But both are more or less treated equally in Peru. Drug mules getting upto 25 years and murderers upto 28 years, that's around 3 years difference. These are two crimes that I see as being world's apart in terms of seriousness and scope, and therefore I think they should be treated distinctly.

Quote:

I don't care that much about the crime. I've only questioned practical aspects of what you've said, as that's more interesting to me than what happens to these two women. If anything I'd say the worst part of the crime is providing bread and butter for the cartels.

Fair enough.

08-25-2013, 10:29 AM	#4 (permalink)
Janszoon Mate, Spawn & Die Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Rapping Community Posts: 24,593	I'd just like to say that every time I see the title of this thread, I think it says "2 British girls one cup" for about half a second. __________________ A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man Time & Place 25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die last.fm

08-25-2013, 06:11 PM	#5 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	You think bribes would absorb any possible increase in their profit margin?

08-26-2013, 11:34 AM	#6 (permalink)
~~butthead aka 216~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: freely swimmin thru the waters of glory much like a majestic bald eagle soars thru the skies Posts: 1,463	im more on the side of batlord and unknown solider here but this is a good discussion i think the sentences should be lighter across the board with drugs. if they are first time, non violent offenders, 5 year maximum. imo there are ppl who will take the risks regardless it they know the penalties are a 5 yr sentence or a life sentence. there are some ppl who are just never goin to be deterred and thats obvious because look at the thousands of crimes that happen yearly where the criminal knows that being caught results in life in prison i dont know much about this specific case or these chicks. but if they are first time offenders and non violent in their crime, it sounds like an excessiv epunishment. i dunno i see my country's crime rate and rate of imprisonment at astronomical numbers and i dont think thats doing anyone any good

08-27-2013, 10:46 AM	#7 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	Sure, but since he was pointing to corrupt airport officials I got the impression we were talking about a commercial jet and not a private plane.