2 British girls arrested for drug smuggling in Peru

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 08-26-2013, 12:34 PM

im more on the side of batlord and unknown solider here but this is a good discussion

i think the sentences should be lighter across the board with drugs. if they are first time, non violent offenders, 5 year maximum.

imo there are ppl who will take the risks regardless it they know the penalties are a 5 yr sentence or a life sentence. there are some ppl who are just never goin to be deterred and thats obvious because look at the thousands of crimes that happen yearly where the criminal knows that being caught results in life in prison

i dont know much about this specific case or these chicks. but if they are first time offenders and non violent in their crime, it sounds like an excessiv epunishment. i dunno i see my country's crime rate and rate of imprisonment at astronomical numbers and i dont think thats doing anyone any good

Unknown Soldier · 08-26-2013, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Next you'll be saying that hit men shouldn't be jailed as they're just carrying out the orders of a higher-up! The whole "I was only following orders" or "I'm a small cog in a larger wheel" argument doesn't wash with me.

Using a hitman as an example is not a very good one. A hitman is normally an ex-military or espionage agent that has decided to use their skills as an assassin. They're professionals that are normally well remunerated and fully aware of the environment that they're working in. The average drug mule is normally somebody that is easy and vulnerable prey for the drug cartels and is on the promise of easy money, which they may or may not even get.

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US's community service thing might or might not work, but what do you say the solution should be?

The community service concept would work, it the Peruvian authorities were remotely interested in the rehabilitation of the offender and what the offender could offer the local community. But they're not and seem to view making examples with punitive punishments their top priority here. But then again should anything else be expected from them, they have no real concept of democracy and fairness in justice is simply an alien concept to them.

Trollheart · 08-26-2013, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Using a hitman as an example is not a very good one.

Yeah I know. I couldn't think of another one off the top of my head and I was on the way out the door...

Quote:

The community service concept would work, it the Peruvian authorities were remotely interested in the rehabilitation of the offender and what the offender could offer the local community. But they're not and seem to view making examples with punitive punishments their top priority here. But then again should anything else be expected from them, they have no real concept of democracy and fairness in justice is simply an alien concept to them.

Yeah but I want to know what HIS solution or suggestion is...

Trollheart · 08-26-2013, 04:25 PM

On a slightly non-related subject, 216 your avatar is giving me a headache.

Unknown Soldier · 08-26-2013, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah but I want to know what HIS solution or suggestion is...

Sorry if I was trying to wear the bat cape again, I go back to being the riddler again.

Also your last 'quote' wasn't done properly and it looks like I've written it.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 08-26-2013, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I guess from a business point of view the drug baron would make more of a profit, but then I'm hesitant to suggest that as I don't believe lighter sentences on mules would actually increase the amount of traffickers. If the existing penalty of 25 years is not deterring them, it means that hefty prison sentences are not the solution here and the tinkering with jail time a waste of time. What would make a huge difference though, are the chances of knowing that you'll most likely be caught.

I disagree. The fact that the existing penalty doesn't eliminate smuggling simply means there is some subset of the population that is willing to take on the risk for the money involved. If that risk were reduced, not only would more people be willing to take it on, but the cartels could pay them less to do so, thus smuggling more contraband for the same amount of money.

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At the end of the day, if they really wanted to (the local authorities) they could actually get most of the cocaine that leaves the continent. Non-corrupt airport officials would snag most of it, leaving only ships to really try and smuggle it. Smuggling controls are actually very effective, when the officials are capable of doing the job properly.

I don't know the situation that well, but wouldn't the airport officials on both sides (source country and destination country) need to be corrupt for that idea to be true? How would corrupt Peruvian officials help get smugglers through US customs, for example?

Quote:

There's no real point in inflicting punitive punishments on mules, when the root cause the barons and production facilities for the drug are right there in the country. Their production is illegal and I can't believe with modern technology that they can't be brought to justice, but we know why they're not brought to justice.

You might be right. I was just doubting the idea that lightening their sentences wouldn't be good for business from the cartel's POV.

The Batlord · 08-27-2013, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Yeah but you seem to be going the other way, like "it's not their fault, let them go, they knew no better". I mean, come on, wtf? This from a man whose tagline says "children should die"? I know it's a joke but you've never come across to me as someone who would advocate going easy on criminals. It's not like they were forced to do it (despite their swiss cheese story)!

I'm not arguing that at all. They certainly did the crime and should be dealt with accordingly. I'm saying that they're idiots, not violent criminals. People who need to be removed from society should get long-term sentences (well, I have opinions on that, but for the purposes of the current justice system we'll say that) not naive morons who are probably just entertaining romantic Scar Face fantasies. They may know about the consequences of drug smuggling, both on themselves and on the people who will buy the drugs, but I doubt they have any real, visceral appreciation for them on the perceptual level, just like a teen drunk driver likely knows they might kill themselves, but the possibility isn't really "real" to them.

P.S. I don't really care about these people, I just have an issue with your line of reasoning in general and feel it to be irrational and harmful.

Quote:

Next you'll be saying that hit men shouldn't be jailed as they're just carrying out the orders of a higher-up! The whole "I was only following orders" or "I'm a small cog in a larger wheel" argument doesn't wash with me. US's community service thing might or might not work, but what do you say the solution should be? How would you discourage people from doing this? Would you discourage them, or do you just think it's me getting my knickers in a twist over something small?

Hitmen are violent criminals. See above.

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Seriously, I'd like to know: what solution/sentence do or would you propose for this sort of crime? Never mind who's ultimately responsible; those who take the risks and want to share in the spoils should be prepared to share in the punishment, so please don't tell me they're unwitting pawns or something...

Well, for starters, a five years sentence is about as fair as we're going to get I imagine. In a perfect world though this whole concept of justice as punishment should be done away with. I don't believe in free will, at least not in some magical, religious form. I think our actions are as predetermined by mathematics as a bouncing ball or any other inanimate object. If that's true then the concept of responsibility is based on faulty logic, and punishing people for something because they are "responsible" is as irrational as punishing an asteroid for killing the dinosaurs. The justice system, rather than worrying about punishment, should treat a crime as evidence of some kind of social dysfunction that needs to be "fixed".

If this particular argument goes much farther then it might make sense to split it into its own thread.

Trollheart · 08-27-2013, 10:39 AM

This is all well and good, but the fundamental question remains: where is my list of poseur metal bands?

The Batlord · 08-27-2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

This is all well and good, but the fundamental question remains: where is my list of poseur metal bands?

Quit sweatin' me, woman. Alterations must be made. You shall have your list, just keep your knickers on.

hip hop bunny hop · 08-27-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

I don't know the situation that well, but wouldn't the airport officials on both sides (source country and destination country) need to be corrupt for that idea to be true? How would corrupt Peruvian officials help get smugglers through US customs, for example?

You don't have to go through U.S. Customs. If we're using the example of planes, if you own or are renting one, you can simply land at any one of the bazillion private strips in this country. Yeah, there's a chance they could _make_ you land to check your cargo.... but it's about as remote as you can get.

08-26-2013, 04:25 PM	#104 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	On a slightly non-related subject, 216 your avatar is giving me a headache. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-27-2013, 10:39 AM	#108 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,992	This is all well and good, but the fundamental question remains: where is my list of poseur metal bands? __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

08-26-2013, 12:34 PM	#101 (permalink)
~~butthead aka 216~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: freely swimmin thru the waters of glory much like a majestic bald eagle soars thru the skies Posts: 1,463	im more on the side of batlord and unknown solider here but this is a good discussion i think the sentences should be lighter across the board with drugs. if they are first time, non violent offenders, 5 year maximum. imo there are ppl who will take the risks regardless it they know the penalties are a 5 yr sentence or a life sentence. there are some ppl who are just never goin to be deterred and thats obvious because look at the thousands of crimes that happen yearly where the criminal knows that being caught results in life in prison i dont know much about this specific case or these chicks. but if they are first time offenders and non violent in their crime, it sounds like an excessiv epunishment. i dunno i see my country's crime rate and rate of imprisonment at astronomical numbers and i dont think thats doing anyone any good