Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 07-21-2013, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I don't think that's the question. Clearly, any action which results in net positive amount of happiness is a morally good action according to utilitarianism. It already answers your question. The question for you should be whether or not you agree with that, if you could ever think killing for pleasure is morally right. And if there are scenarios where utilitarianism would allow for it to be, whether or not that completely invalidates utilitarianism in other situations, like abortion.

For me, it doesn't. I don't require utilitarianism to be flawless like you seem to do. I can apply it when it makes sense to do so and not when it doesn't. For example utilitarianism would have me break laws for good consquences, but when it comes to laws, I think a normative approach is better. I generally think that we should follow the laws in our society, even if happiness could be maximized by breaking them.

So whether or not it is possible to dream up a scenario where utilitarianism defends what you perceive as the wrong action is, to me, not really interesting. Your requirement for a morale theory to be flawless in regards to your own moral interests is, in my opinion, unrealistic. If you submit different moral theories to extreme testing, like you have with utilitarianism, none of them will satisfy you in every instance. Utilitarianism is not unique in that way

Here's why I think it's a problem. If you propose that abortion isn't wrong because it doesn't involve suffering, then it should follow that any killing without suffering isn't wrong. If that isn't true, then it undermines your whole premise.

There's no consistent standard being applied, in such a case. To apply the moral theory in such a way is to arbitrarily override the theory with gut morality whenever you feel the situation calls for it. The question then arises: why bother with the moral theory at all? I'm not really sure how you can not see this as a problem.

Quote:

Yes, utilitarianism will often protect animals over humans because it doesn't say that human suffering is more important than animal suffering. But what does that have to do with abortions?

The idea that people fundamentally value human life, thus possibly contradicting the utilitarian arguments for something like abortion.

anticipation · 07-20-2013, 12:43 AM

Haha I suppose so, it's a very appealing reality. Sexy too, all those sweaty, hot molecules colliding with each other in the darkness. Reminds me of my 6th birthday party, and my 8th too.

kallifrey · 07-20-2013, 12:59 AM

An uncommon pro-choice stance:

When considering the sort of people who are more likely to get an abortion (dumb sluts, dysfunctional impulsive types, drug addicts etc), voluntary abortion helps improve the genetic stock of future generations by slightly reducing the disproportionately high rates of breeding by stupid people. When peak humanity is reached, do you really want the population to be comprised mostly of idiots?

According to Freakonomics, their explanation for the steady decline in crime rates in the 1990s, was due to the result of the Roe vs Wade decision 20 years earlier. Fewer unwanted children produced by stupid people, meant fewer criminals in the long run.

Astronomer · 07-20-2013, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kallifrey

An uncommon pro-choice stance:

When considering the sort of people who are more likely to get an abortion (dumb sluts, dysfunctional impulsive types, drug addicts etc), voluntary abortion helps improve the genetic stock of future generations by slightly reducing the disproportionately high rates of breeding by stupid people. When peak humanity is reached, do you really want the population to be comprised mostly of idiots?

According to Freakonomics, their explanation for the steady decline in crime rates in the 1990s, was due to the result of the Roe vs Wade decision 20 years earlier. Fewer unwanted children produced by stupid people, meant fewer criminals in the long run.

Abortion is legal in my state of Australia and "dysfunctional types" still procreate and have babies when they become accidentally pregnant. I would actually argue that those who choose to have an abortion are probably the "responsible types" who have thought long and hard about their decision and the fact that they probably don't have the means necessary to raise a child. The lower SES bogans, "sluts", drug addicts or "dysfunctional" as you say, get pregnant, and think "OMG YES A BABY YAY I'M GONNA BE A MUM!!11!!!"

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 07-20-2013, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kallifrey

An uncommon pro-choice stance:

When considering the sort of people who are more likely to get an abortion (dumb sluts, dysfunctional impulsive types, drug addicts etc), voluntary abortion helps improve the genetic stock of future generations by slightly reducing the disproportionately high rates of breeding by stupid people. When peak humanity is reached, do you really want the population to be comprised mostly of idiots?

According to Freakonomics, their explanation for the steady decline in crime rates in the 1990s, was due to the result of the Roe vs Wade decision 20 years earlier. Fewer unwanted children produced by stupid people, meant fewer criminals in the long run.

idiots are having kids in record numbers regardless. just look at any hum drum town in this country and you'll find all te wrong people having kids. i remember when i worked an overnight shift years ago this 20 yr old girl who had a boyfriend fresh out of jail, a baby, and was on welfare went and had another one. i think a lot of thes eppl have kids because they didnt go to college, they kinda got thrown into the real world early, they arent smart, etc etc etc. well now im gettin way off track but regardless of abortions these people are still gonna have kids.

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 07-20-2013, 09:07 AM

andrei you're perfect just sayin'

THATS AS GAY AS IT COMES BTW I MEANT IT IN THE GAYEST WAY POSSIBLE

ALL THE GAY

seriously though admiring people for their intellect/ideas is gay? why is this is a thing
just like the whole "girl crush" phenom, like

stahp

If this is true I'm even gayer than I thought I was.

Urban Hat€monger ? · 07-20-2013, 11:03 AM

I've already used up Urban Lovemonger

Urban Hat€monger ? · 07-20-2013, 02:48 PM

Let's try this again shall we.
Back on topic please.

WWWP · 07-20-2013, 02:48 PM

Lmao really that was worth deleting? Ffs.

**Scarlett O'Hara** · 07-20-2013, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolverinewolfweiselpigeon

Lmao really that was worth deleting? Ffs.

I told everyone to get back on topic and people continued to post so it got deleted by a mod. You're welcome to talk about the thread topic however.

View Poll Results: ?
Pro-Choice?	66	84.62%
Pro-Life	7	8.97%
Prefer Not To Choose	5	6.41%
Voters: 78. You may not vote on this poll

07-20-2013, 11:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,626	I've already used up Urban Lovemonger __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

07-20-2013, 02:48 PM	#8 (permalink)
Urban Hat€monger ? The Sexual Intellectual Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Somewhere cooler than you Posts: 18,626	Let's try this again shall we. Back on topic please. __________________ Urb's RYM Stuff Most people sell their soul to the devil, but the devil sells his soul to Nick Cave.

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07-20-2013, 12:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
anticipation Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,561	Haha I suppose so, it's a very appealing reality. Sexy too, all those sweaty, hot molecules colliding with each other in the darkness. Reminds me of my 6th birthday party, and my 8th too.

07-20-2013, 12:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
kallifrey Groupie Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 5	An uncommon pro-choice stance: When considering the sort of people who are more likely to get an abortion (dumb sluts, dysfunctional impulsive types, drug addicts etc), voluntary abortion helps improve the genetic stock of future generations by slightly reducing the disproportionately high rates of breeding by stupid people. When peak humanity is reached, do you really want the population to be comprised mostly of idiots? According to Freakonomics, their explanation for the steady decline in crime rates in the 1990s, was due to the result of the Roe vs Wade decision 20 years earlier. Fewer unwanted children produced by stupid people, meant fewer criminals in the long run.

07-20-2013, 09:07 AM	#6 (permalink)
~~Sansa Stark~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: The Eyrie, Vale of Arryn, Westeros Posts: 3,234	andrei you're perfect just sayin' THATS AS GAY AS IT COMES BTW I MEANT IT IN THE GAYEST WAY POSSIBLE ALL THE GAY seriously though admiring people for their intellect/ideas is gay? why is this is a thing just like the whole "girl crush" phenom, like stahp If this is true I'm even gayer than I thought I was.