To JWB,

I think we may be on opposite sides of the same argument, something I can of course accept. I agree that we fundamentally morally value humans we cooperate with. But when it comes to fetuses, I think we only fundamentally place moral values in them when we fail to rationalize and attribute to them traits which babies, children or adults can possess - but not fetuses. The ability to rationalize is also a very valuable aspect of being human to which we owe a lot. All this is not to say that a fetus has no moral value, but not so much that the interests of the fetus (something the fetus does not really possess, but which people attribute to it) should come before the interests of the mother.

To finish this post off with a slightly lame comment, you can't abort without killing something just like you can't make ham without killing something (even if it's a ham made of tofu). Sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils and perhaps there is no "right" here morally speaking, only the lesser evil.

Full circle - you get to pick whether you want the ham of tofu or pig. We call that "choice".

There is no fully fucntioning human being at the time of conception endowed with 14th amendment rights. There is a devloping life. A fetus is not a baby as an embryo is not a fetus. Life doesn't begin at conception - life begans prior to conception but not all "life" is sacred. When my wife miscarried we did not get all emotional about the lump of cells that failed to develop. We didn't name the miscarriage and their was no funeral. Mother nature aborts things on a routine basis.

If someone wants to attach some special significance to the moment of conception, good for them as long as they limit their faith belief to themselves. The rest of us can make our own decisions.

Thought experiment - an anti-abortionist (prolifer is a misnomer) happens upon a fertility clinic when a fire breaks out. In a lab to his left he can save 50 embryos waiting for artificial insemination. Or... he can save one unattended child, age 4. He can't save both. What does he do?

Probably ask himself, what would Jesus do?

In the heat of the moment I would obviously save the child, but that's just what I think my basic protection skills would suggest. The amount of those who die would be greater and in hindsight mine would have been a bad decision, but I would still act in my natural response to stress or be a selflish ******* and save no one.

If, in some odd scenario, I had quite a bit of time to think, I would choose the embryos, though. It leads to a death which many will surely point to me as the blame. However, if I had enough time to realistically (in this situation I believe that I would be under a lot of stress and my natural perspective of what is human would come into play) consider who my actions will affect, I would choose the embryos. That being said (and morally noted) I think I would save whomever lies within my instinct to save i.e. the already born child.

if prolifers cared about children so much they'd do some research on why so many zygotes fail to implant. they'd do more research on how to make dangerous things like ectopic pregnancies and stillbirths happen less. they'd make sure unplanned pregnancies never happened in the first place by letting women have easier access to cheap birth control.

i don't think prolifers understand that people don't want abortions, they don't have abortion parties or any **** like that. it's for people who want to make sure that this potential child isn't born into bad circumstances, such as abuse, mothers who are too young, mothers who might die from the pregnancy ect ect. i think they've fetishized the foetus as a magical thing that will accomplish everything in the world, and then forget about the thing as soon as it's born.

i'm pro choice as ****

Here is a thought - what if anti choice males actually understood what they were saying. Can you imagine if we told anti-choice men that birth control pills might in some cases prevent a fertilized egg from implanting. And then all of a sudden a law was proposed to outlaw same and guys had to either use a rubber or have a new addition. This whole debate would be over.

The Bishops already tried telling the flock not to take the pill. You can see how that is working out.

I am pro-choice but not because I like abortion but I feel that I have no right to make a choice for an individual woman. Do I think abortion is murder? Yes. However that is only my opinion. I think however the woman should decide whether to abort the baby or not. In fact most women do not want to abort their babies because they would want to. It is because of health danger and rape cases. But I hate abortion but I also believe that the woman should decide what to do with her body.

Dude, abortion kicks ass.

abortions arent cool until you knock up a 16 yr old


then they rule

Or your sister.