Turkey

Unknown Soldier · 06-10-2013, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misspoptart

Well they aren't in Turkey now, are they, and they haven't been participating in the protests for the past 12 days, either, I imagine.

So are you saying that police brutality in Turkey is something new?

misspoptart · 06-10-2013, 07:53 AM

I'm saying that this is the first time they have fought a substantial number of civilians and this is by far the largest injury count. And this is not "just another routine police crackdown," either, as if anything could be further from the situation in Taksim on Saturday the 2nd or Ankara for the past two nights. In fact this is a historical event -- 6 or 7 police have committed suicide over it and 3 people have died -- that has no precedent whatsoever in Turkey. So get a clue.

Unknown Soldier · 06-10-2013, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misspoptart

I'm saying that this is the first time they have fought a substantial number of civilians and this is by far the largest injury count. And this is not "just another routine police crackdown," either, as if anything could be further from the situation in Taksim on Saturday the 2nd or Ankara for the past two nights. In fact this is a historical event -- 6 or 7 police have committed suicide over it and 3 people have died -- that has no precedent whatsoever in Turkey. So get a clue.

Certain people have this belief that when something new and tragic happens, it must be worse than whatever happened before. I think you need to open your eyes and look at some plain facts about police brutality in Turkey and there are links below that go way back. The only difference today, is that thanks to the world media the eyes of the world are on Turkey.

I'm sure you're familiar with the Taksim Square massacres and crackdowns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1969)
Taksim Square massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't normally use left wing links that often but this is not bad.
Turkey: Police brutality intensifies along with the political crisis - World Socialist Web Site

..... and let us not forget the genocide of 1,500,000 Armenians of which the Turkish police were involved.
The History Place - Genocide in the 20th Century: Armenians in Turkey: 1915-18

As you can see Turkey has a long history of police aggression and if you want more links I'm only too happy to oblige, there's no shortage of them!

misspoptart · 06-10-2013, 09:24 AM

You are citing events that happened 50, if not 100 years ago. You are completely out of touch with what is happening on the ground in Istanbul if you think it is comparable to the Armenian genocide or the Taksim massacre. My eyes could not be more open about the situation and telling me what's happening from your comfy chair in London is absolutely ridiculous. This thread is about what's happening here, and it is unlike anything that has happened here before. That's all there is to it.

We're talking about 640,000 people protesting against past figures that barely reached 30,000. Moreover, the whole city is alive with the sounds of pots and pans banging every night. People from all walks of life are involved. There is absolutely nothing "routine" about it, and I am incredibly offended that you even used that word to describe something that is happening among Turkey's so-called "apolitical" youth.

Unknown Soldier · 06-10-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misspoptart

You are citing events that happened 50, if not 100 years ago.

Hence my opening statement that police crackdowns are nothing new there.

Quote:

You are completely out of touch with what is happening on the ground in Istanbul if you think it is comparable to the Armenian genocide or the Taksim massacre.

Not at all, I'm just putting things into a historical perspective.

Quote:

My eyes could not be more open about the situation and telling me what's happening from your comfy chair in London is absolutely ridiculous

Yes it's quite comfy thanks.

Quote:

This thread is about what's happening here, and it is unlike anything that has happened here before. That's all there is to it.
We're talking about 640,000 people protesting against past figures that barely reached 30,000. Moreover, the whole city is alive with the sounds of pots and pans banging every night. People from all walks of life are involved.

You've missed the point, I'm not debating the amounts of people that are protesting or why they are protesting in the first place. I'm referring to the traditional way that the police there deal with such things. For example, if the police there had a history of being easy-going with protestors and were now getting violent with them, then it would be something of a surprise.

Quote:

There is absolutely nothing "routine" about it, and I am incredibly offended that you even used that word to describe something that is happening among Turkey's so-called "apolitical" youth.

Why are you offended, I've not condoned what the police are doing at all. I'm just saying that I'm not shocked at what they doing, given that it is widely known on how they treat protestors, dissidents and other so-called undesirables. Now if this was happening say in Germany then I might be surprised.

misspoptart · 06-11-2013, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Why are you offended, I've not condoned what the police are doing at all. I'm just saying that I'm not shocked at what they doing, given that it is widely known on how they treat protestors, dissidents and other so-called undesirables. Now if this was happening say in Germany then I might be surprised.

I'm offended because you act like Turkey is a third-world country where the police just go around routinely beating people, and that there's no reason why this is news. You should see the water cannon tanks that are on fire in the square right now thanks to protestors who continue to protest this extremely rare occurrence.

Unknown Soldier · 06-11-2013, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misspoptart

I'm offended because you act like Turkey is a third-world country where the police just go around routinely beating people, and that there's no reason why this is news. You should see the water cannon tanks that are on fire in the square right now thanks to protestors who continue to protest this extremely rare occurrence.

Whether the police use water cannons against thousands in the streets or routinely beat up undesirables in the cop shop, still amounts to police brutality. Just because the former according to you might be a rarity, doesn't make it any more disturbing than the second option which seems more common.

Police brutality is not always a product of a third-world country anyway, but usually of a country where the concepts of liberal democracy are either not that strong or where the police have always had a free reign anyway. For example in a country like Brazil which has always had a high level of poverty the economy has been booming, but police brutality there is just as bad as always and this is surely a throwback to their dictatorial days.

misspoptart · 06-17-2013, 06:48 AM

For anyone curious for more about what's going on in Istanbul, on Saturday night thousands of people left their homes to join protesting groups walking toward Taksim square from four different directions on main highways. I was at home eating dinner with my boyfriend and his mom & sister when we heard a group walking by our house in Bahcelievler. My boyfriend grabbed his whistle and I grabbed a few pots and pans to join the group. I didn't take my wallet or even cash because I expected it to be a one or two hour march around the 'hood.

Well, little did I know that the crowd was about to expand exponentially. People started asking others to come out of their apartments and join the group, chanting 'To Taksim!, To Taksim!'

Taksim was over 20 km from where we were.

We walked a route that led us toward the neighboring burrow of Bakirkoy, and, after meeting another group of 2,000+ protestors head on, we did a u-turn and joined up with them. By the time we reached the highway to Taksim (at around 12am on Sunday morning), there were about 8,000 of us. There were people from all ranks of society, including old ladies in their pajamas, children, and girls wearing headscarves. The walk to Beyoglu (refer to the map) took approximately 6 hours, and the entire way we encountered people flashing the lights from their homes, banging on pots and pans, new recruits, and people waving and taking pictures on bridges. One group on a bridge even burned a poster of the president off of its hooks, and it fell onto the highway in front of us. At entrances/exits to the highway, a lot of cars supported the cause by blocking traffic and pretending to be broken down. Tractor trailers, vans full of people, girls hanging out of sunroofs...yeah. It was quite the convoy.

At Beyoglu, the leaders of the group started to warn women and children to get to the back -- the police had finally stopped us and began throwing tear gas canisters. I smelled and felt the gas long before I saw the clouds creeping up, and although I was dead tired and my legs were broken from walking 15 kilometers I got so much energy. I wrapped some cloth around my head and I was like COME ON let's take 'em. But then the screaming and crying started so I got scared. I didn't want to be separated from my boyfriend and it started getting hard to breathe. He took my arm and we ran to the side of the highway and started up a hill. The problem was, hundreds of other people did the same thing, and it became really muddy and wet to climb, and there was a fence at the top. We were all clinging to bushes and trees to pull ourselves up. But yeah, it was hard with tear gas in your face. Then the sounds of explosions was also very jarring. People in their houses started banging on pots and pans again and throwing fireworks. All was chaos.

Then we hopped in a taxi and headed home. On the way, we saw two other groups headed toward Taksim on the same highway. It was all very inspiring.

We didn't even have a chance to protest. We walked all that way just to be dispersed in literally five seconds. At 5am. From sooooo far away. But, I think we accomplished our mission.

misspoptart · 06-17-2013, 06:53 AM

As a side note, the police are now using acid mixed with water to disperse people, and the EU has declared that the Turkish government is using illegal amounts of tear gas. It's entering people's homes, hotels, restaurants, and hospitals.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 06-17-2013, 08:20 AM

Sounds absolutely mental tbh.

Didn't all this start from the government wanting to build something somewhere which people didn't want there (yeah I know that's a pretty vague summary

)?

Also did that guy who got hit by the water cannon actually die?

lol'd at the pots and pans bit btw.

06-17-2013, 06:48 AM	#18 (permalink)
misspoptart gimme gimme Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: istanbul Posts: 897	For anyone curious for more about what's going on in Istanbul, on Saturday night thousands of people left their homes to join protesting groups walking toward Taksim square from four different directions on main highways. I was at home eating dinner with my boyfriend and his mom & sister when we heard a group walking by our house in Bahcelievler. My boyfriend grabbed his whistle and I grabbed a few pots and pans to join the group. I didn't take my wallet or even cash because I expected it to be a one or two hour march around the 'hood. Well, little did I know that the crowd was about to expand exponentially. People started asking others to come out of their apartments and join the group, chanting 'To Taksim!, To Taksim!' Taksim was over 20 km from where we were. We walked a route that led us toward the neighboring burrow of Bakirkoy, and, after meeting another group of 2,000+ protestors head on, we did a u-turn and joined up with them. By the time we reached the highway to Taksim (at around 12am on Sunday morning), there were about 8,000 of us. There were people from all ranks of society, including old ladies in their pajamas, children, and girls wearing headscarves. The walk to Beyoglu (refer to the map) took approximately 6 hours, and the entire way we encountered people flashing the lights from their homes, banging on pots and pans, new recruits, and people waving and taking pictures on bridges. One group on a bridge even burned a poster of the president off of its hooks, and it fell onto the highway in front of us. At entrances/exits to the highway, a lot of cars supported the cause by blocking traffic and pretending to be broken down. Tractor trailers, vans full of people, girls hanging out of sunroofs...yeah. It was quite the convoy. At Beyoglu, the leaders of the group started to warn women and children to get to the back -- the police had finally stopped us and began throwing tear gas canisters. I smelled and felt the gas long before I saw the clouds creeping up, and although I was dead tired and my legs were broken from walking 15 kilometers I got so much energy. I wrapped some cloth around my head and I was like COME ON let's take 'em. But then the screaming and crying started so I got scared. I didn't want to be separated from my boyfriend and it started getting hard to breathe. He took my arm and we ran to the side of the highway and started up a hill. The problem was, hundreds of other people did the same thing, and it became really muddy and wet to climb, and there was a fence at the top. We were all clinging to bushes and trees to pull ourselves up. But yeah, it was hard with tear gas in your face. Then the sounds of explosions was also very jarring. People in their houses started banging on pots and pans again and throwing fireworks. All was chaos. Then we hopped in a taxi and headed home. On the way, we saw two other groups headed toward Taksim on the same highway. It was all very inspiring. We didn't even have a chance to protest. We walked all that way just to be dispersed in literally five seconds. At 5am. From sooooo far away. But, I think we accomplished our mission. Last edited by misspoptart; 06-17-2013 at 06:56 AM.

06-10-2013, 07:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
misspoptart gimme gimme Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: istanbul Posts: 897	I'm saying that this is the first time they have fought a substantial number of civilians and this is by far the largest injury count. And this is not "just another routine police crackdown," either, as if anything could be further from the situation in Taksim on Saturday the 2nd or Ankara for the past two nights. In fact this is a historical event -- 6 or 7 police have committed suicide over it and 3 people have died -- that has no precedent whatsoever in Turkey. So get a clue.

06-10-2013, 09:24 AM	#14 (permalink)
misspoptart gimme gimme Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: istanbul Posts: 897	You are citing events that happened 50, if not 100 years ago. You are completely out of touch with what is happening on the ground in Istanbul if you think it is comparable to the Armenian genocide or the Taksim massacre. My eyes could not be more open about the situation and telling me what's happening from your comfy chair in London is absolutely ridiculous. This thread is about what's happening here, and it is unlike anything that has happened here before. That's all there is to it. We're talking about 640,000 people protesting against past figures that barely reached 30,000. Moreover, the whole city is alive with the sounds of pots and pans banging every night. People from all walks of life are involved. There is absolutely nothing "routine" about it, and I am incredibly offended that you even used that word to describe something that is happening among Turkey's so-called "apolitical" youth.

06-17-2013, 06:53 AM	#19 (permalink)
misspoptart gimme gimme Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: istanbul Posts: 897	As a side note, the police are now using acid mixed with water to disperse people, and the EU has declared that the Turkish government is using illegal amounts of tear gas. It's entering people's homes, hotels, restaurants, and hospitals.

06-17-2013, 08:20 AM	#20 (permalink)
~~Cuthbert~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Black Country Posts: 8,827	Sounds absolutely mental tbh. Didn't all this start from the government wanting to build something somewhere which people didn't want there (yeah I know that's a pretty vague summary )? Also did that guy who got hit by the water cannon actually die? lol'd at the pots and pans bit btw.