Children killed in Connecticut school shooting (likely 27 dead,including 18 children)

**Janszoon** · 12-26-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

The best way to asses this, is to look at four English speaking countries that have been built up on immigration. These four would be the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Then looking at the ratio of gun ownership and how it relates to gun crime in each of the respective countries. I' sure there are stats out there for this. Then one of the most crucial factors is the type of immigration that each country attracts.

Initially both the USA and Australia took anybody before they really tightened up on their immigration criteria, whereas Canada and New Zealand have always been more restrictive on the type of immigrants that they let in.

I'm not sure if that's actually true or not, but assuming it is, so what? HHBH's point was that immigrants are by definition risk-takers so it shouldn't really matter what "type" were let in, all of them would still be risk-takers.

Unknown Soldier · 12-26-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I'm not sure if that's actually true or not, but assuming it is, so what? HHBH's point was that immigrants are by definition risk-takers so it shouldn't really matter what "type" were let in, all of them would still be risk-takers.

The point being, that if a country is more selective on the type of immigrants it takes (ie. those with an education and a profession) they're less likely to be involved in risky behaviour. HHBH has just lumped all immigrants together here and hasn't broken them down into immigrant categories.

But of course for that to be relevant, there has to be an argument that immigrants are directly connected to risky behaviour, in some cases they are but in other cases definitely not.

Burning Down · 12-26-2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Initially both the USA and Australia took anybody before they really tightened up on their immigration criteria, whereas Canada and New Zealand have always been more restrictive on the type of immigrants that they let in.

I don't think that's necessarily true of Canada... It's fairly easy to get in here and even to obtain citizenship. Hell, you can marry a Canadian abroad somewhere and get citizenship pretty much right away, I hear. The language proficiency tests that are taken just to get permanent resident status are a joke - there are people here who hardly speak a lick of English or French and they still pass the test. It's really easy to get visas here too - my boyfriend basically just flashed his passport and they did a quick check and processed the paperwork.

Unknown Soldier · 12-26-2012, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

I don't think that's necessarily true of Canada... It's fairly easy to get in here and even to obtain citizenship. Hell, you can marry a Canadian abroad somewhere and get citizenship pretty much right away, I hear. The language proficiency tests that are taken just to get permanent resident status are a joke - there are people here who hardly speak a lick of English or French and they still pass the test. It's really easy to get visas here too - my boyfriend basically just flashed his passport and they did a quick check and processed the paperwork.

It's actually hard to emigrate there, a good friend of mine tried and gave up in the end and opted for Australia which he found easier. He stated that had he a job lined up or was on the list of required professions for Canada then it wouldn't have been such a problem. There is also a four year waiting list in most cases as well, unless you have a job lined up. The company employing you, then has to demonstrate that they couldn't find a Canadian resident to do the job as well. He found the whole experience totally negative and found opting for Aus a lot more straight-forward. The last time I looked, the queue through official channels to get into Canada was huge and a backlog of almost a million people!

There are ways around it of course, like study in Canada and then get a work permit on completion of your studies and then get residency that way, marry a Canadian or the business investment programme. For French speakers going to the French part of Canada is actually a lot easier as they are more lenient on requirements.

Visas are different and are easy to get as long as the basic criteria is met. Unless we're talking about the UK which has one of the strictest visa requirements in Europe.

Language proficiency tests are largely a joke, if immigrants were required to actually reach the required level, immigrant levels from non-English speaking countries would be right down.

**Janszoon** · 12-26-2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

It's actually hard to emigrate there, a good friend of mine tried and gave up in the end and opted for Australia which he found easier. He stated that he had a job lined up or was on the list of required professions for Canada then it wouldn't have been such a problem. There is also a four year waiting list in most cases as well, unless you have a job lined up. The company employing you, then has to demonstrate that they couldn't find a Canadian resident to do the job as well. He found the whole experience totally negative and found opting for Aus a lot more straight-forward. The last time I looked, the queue through official channels to get into Canada was huge!

There are ways around it of course, like study in Canada and then get a work permit on completion of your studies and then get residency that way or marry a Canadian.

The US is similar to that as well actually. I've known many people here with similar experiences to your friend's. Hell, they even gave my mother a hard time not too long ago even though she had been a citizen for forty-plus years.

Burning Down · 12-26-2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

It's actually hard to emigrate there, a good friend of mine tried and gave up in the end and opted for Australia which he found easier. He stated that had he a job lined up or was on the list of required professions for Canada then it wouldn't have been such a problem. There is also a four year waiting list in most cases as well, unless you have a job lined up. The company employing you, then has to demonstrate that they couldn't find a Canadian resident to do the job as well. He found the whole experience totally negative and found opting for Aus a lot more straight-forward. The last time I looked, the queue through official channels to get into Canada was huge and a backlog of almost a million people!

I always thought the US was more like that, and not Canada.

Unknown Soldier · 12-26-2012, 09:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Burning Down

I always thought the US was more like that, and not Canada.

Canada is probably the strictest to get into, as the USA has largely closed the door on immigration now and has more than enough people, unless it's unskilled labour from Latin America or offering people business ventures in Florida.

Burning Down · 12-26-2012, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Canada is probably the strictest to get into, as the USA has largely closed the door on immigration now and has more than enough people, unless it's unskilled labour from Latin America or offering people business ventures in Florida.

Maybe it depends on where you come from... Toronto alone has so many people from a variety of countries who have commented on the ease of immigrating here. More than half the population of this city were actually born outside Canada, mostly in India and China. The problem I think, is that we encourage educated professionals to immigrate here (doctors, lawyers, engineers) but then our laws require them to spend a crap load of money to go back to school to get certified to practice in whatever province they moved to... so they just end up with jobs like driving cabs and custodial work, if they come here at all.

Unknown Soldier · 12-26-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

but then our laws require them to spend a crap load of money to go back to school to get certified to practice in whatever province they moved to... so they just end up with jobs like driving cabs and custodial work, if they come here at all.

You've proved the point I've been making, in that Canada tries to get educated immigrants even to do its more menial jobs. Meaning that educated professionals doing menial jobs in Canada, are less likely to demonstrate risky behaviour compared to their non-educated counterparts. Hence the criteria laid down by the authorities there regarding immigration.

**Janszoon** · 12-26-2012, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

You've proved the point I've been making, in that Canada tries to get educated immigrants even to do its more menial jobs. Meaning that educated professionals doing menial jobs in Canada, are less likely to demonstrate risky behaviour compared to their non-educated counterparts. Hence the criteria laid down by the authorities there regarding immigration.

That's also how the US is though so it doesn't prove your point at all. Also, I believe immigrants here are less likely than other citizens to commit crimes here, not more.