Is pride illogical?

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

Yes, I was using heart in the metaphorical sense. My point is there can be two conflicting thoughts in your head, and everyone has the potential to make a counter-intuitive decision. Which is exactly what free will is. It doesn't matter how much you boil it down to brain chemistry because even though you can...it doesn't change that in the way most people define it, we still have free will. The way you describe it, it sounds more concrete. Like you will never be able to escape your brain. While that may be true, consider what I said about the brain being dynamic. Everyone has the potential to CHANGE their brains, which is itself also a part of free will.

But to play along...I hate grits. And I'm from the south, which I guess is weird.

Ok, can you pinpoint for me the time in your lifewhere you realized you disliked the taste of that food and do you think you chose to dislike the taste of it? Could you choose at any given moment to like that food if you wanted to?

I would apply that same logic to anything you like or dislike, and I know that isn't exactly definitive proof of lack of free will but at the very least it's a basic illustration of what I'm getting at. Most real life scenarios involve a lot more variables that make it hard to pinpoint why we do what we do.

duga · 12-05-2012, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Ok, can you pinpoint for me the time in your lifewhere you realized you disliked the taste of that food and do you think you chose to dislike the taste of it? Could you choose at any given moment to like that food if you wanted to?

I would apply that same logic to anything you like or dislike, and I know that isn't exactly definitive proof of lack of free will but at the very least it's a basic illustration of what I'm getting at. Most real life scenarios involve a lot more variables that make it hard to pinpoint why we do what we do.

While it's a clever way to make a point, there have been plenty of foods I used to dislike and now like. Mashed potatoes, for one. I used to hate the texture, now I can't get enough of them. I made a conscious decision to try again and they grew on me. Free will in action.

I think you are confusing conscious action with subconscious persuasion. While it may seem you don't have a choice in how your subconscious mind is influencing you, you actually do. That is the part of your brain that will suppress a horrible memory, and while you didn't consciously decide to do that, it was still YOU that made the decision. Your brain is you, after all. We know far too little to make any philosophical claims about all that, though.

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

While it's a clever way to make a point, there have been plenty of foods I used to dislike and now like. Mashed potatoes, for one. I used to hate the texture, now I can't get enough of them. I made a conscious decision to try again and they grew on me. Free will in action.

I think you are confusing conscious action with subconscious persuasion. While it may seem you don't have a choice in how your subconscious mind is influencing you, you actually do. That is the part of your brain that will suppress a horrible memory, and while you didn't consciously decide to do that, it was still YOU that made the decision. Your brain is you, after all. We know far too little to make any philosophical claims about all that, though.

That is not the same thing, tastes evolve just like everything else. Exposure to other food can prompt interest in older, disliked foods and increase one's palate. Recognition that one's palate is expanding is a common part of growing up, leading to more experimentation. I went through the exact same thing. No different from being able to appreciate a deeper film as you mature.

In no way does that show you chose to enjoy a food, the appeal of it's taste is simply beyond your control.

Another hypothetical to illustrate it: if you're invited to a dinner at a guests house and they are serving grits, are you telling me you can choose to appreciate or dislike it on a dime? Because all I got from your post was that their was environmental influenced that prompted your conversion.

duga · 12-05-2012, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

That is not the same thing, tastes evolve just like everything else. Exposure to other food can prompt interest in older, disliked foods and increase one's palate. Recognition that one's palate is expanding is a common part of growing up, leading to more experimentation. I went through the exact same thing. No different from being able to appreciate a deeper film as you mature.

In no way does that show you chose to enjoy a food, the appeal of it's taste is simply beyond your control.

Another hypothetical to illustrate it: if you're invited to a dinner at a guests house and they are serving grits, are you telling me you can choose to appreciate or dislike it on a dime? Because all I got from your post was that their was environmental influenced that prompted your conversion.

I see what you are saying, but this is still a huge leap going from "you can't control what foods you like" to "there is no free will". Liking or not liking something I suppose is out of our control...like not liking a sun burn. I don't know many people who enjoy those. Why do we not enjoy them? Because they cause us discomfort. Causing comfort or discomfort...liking or not liking...sure, I can't say we can do much about that. We can still control what we do about it, though. Just as most people will avoid the sun or use sunblock, there are still some idiots that will march right out there and take a nap at noon under the sun.

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I see what you are saying, but this is still a huge leap going from "you can't control what foods you like" to "there is no free will". Liking or not liking something I suppose is out of our control...like not liking a sun burn. I don't know many people who enjoy those. Why do we not enjoy them? Because they cause us discomfort. Causing comfort or discomfort...liking or not liking...sure, I can't say we can do much about that. We can still control what we do about it, though. Just as most people will avoid the sun or use sunblock, there are still some idiots that will march right out there and take a nap at noon under the sun.

Yeah, I know. I recognize that it was a pretty basic explanation and most human behavior is not always so explainable and lots of it is most definitely not logical to us

My point still stands though, and an illogical action isn't proof of free will, it just shows that some people have some gaping holes in logic in their brain imo

duga · 12-05-2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

My point still stands though, and an illogical action isn't proof of free will, it just shows that some people have some gaping holes in logic in their brain imo

I think one of the main issues here is you are trying to define free will as something very specific, when in actuality I think most people see it as something more general...as in, did I really make this choice? If there is free will, then yes...regardless of how my brain may have influenced it. If no, then there is some external force guiding my actions. Personally, I feel the latter is fairly unlikely. When viewed that way...any choice - whether it's because I like or dislike something and whether it's because of some experience I had in the past - is still the end result of ME making that choice. The argument you are making is whether or not free will is some tangible attribute humans must have, external from our actions or experiences. If that's the case, then I actually agree with you. But that is not what free will is.

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

I think one of the main issues here is you are trying to define free will as something very specific, when in actuality I think most people see it as something more general...as in, did I really make this choice? If there is free will, then yes...regardless of how my brain may have influenced it. If no, then there is some external force guiding my actions. Personally, I feel the latter is fairly unlikely. When viewed that way...any choice - whether it's because I like or dislike something and whether it's because of some experience I had in the past - is still the end result of ME making that choice. The argument you are making is whether or not free will is some tangible attribute humans must have, external from our actions or experiences. If that's the case, then I actually agree with you. But that is not what free will is.

But you don't make choices, you have the illusion of making choices. It's not that there's an external guiding hand playing you like a puppet, it's that everything you do has been dictated by what nature has given you.

When you go out to see a film on a Saturday night, you may think you chose to do so over staying home and studying, but in reality it wasn't a choice and at that specific moment in time you only ever were destined to make that action given all the considerations.

I may get laughed at for saying this, but I think we choose what we do as much as, say, plants choose to bloom. The only difference being our actions are far more complex and more informed. Our ability to pick up knowledge as we go far surpasses any other creature, but we still abide by the same laws of nature that they do. Our actions are simply responses to given stimuli in the environment imo.

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 09:36 PM

Here's a chart on the matter. I fall pretty clearly under the category of Hard Determinism

**Janszoon** · 12-05-2012, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Here's a chart on the matter. I fall pretty clearly under the category of Hard Determinism

Sounds pretty sexy.

midnight rain · 12-05-2012, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Sounds pretty sexy.

if you show me yours, i'll show you mine

12-05-2012, 09:36 PM	#28 (permalink)
midnight rain Music Addict Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,711	Here's a chart on the matter. I fall pretty clearly under the category of Hard Determinism