In a universe of infinite space and time, is it possible for something to happen once
 

If the universe was at least infinitely old, then this seems like a problem to me. In an infinite universe I would imagine that at some point everything that could possibly happen at some point necessarily would, and everything that happened once seems like it should surely repeat itself at some point.
Anyone know of any philosophers that have taken on this issue?

The only problem I'm seeing here is that you're addressing it as though the Universe itself is infinite, but possible happenings within said Universe, finite. There's a vast amount of repetition to be sure, but there are, as far as I can figure, also an infinite amount of possible occurrences within an infinite Universe.

Are you talking about cosmic events such as galaxies being born or dying stars or are you talking every single that can possibly happen regardless of factors?

Also here's an interesting one, are you taking things on the planet earth and man's interaction into account?

The reason I ask is no matter how long the universe lasts I doubt random elements would ever conspire to create a Chevy Nova or a Ham sandwich.

But if you're asking if the wind blows on tuesday would it ever blow on tuesday again...I'm sure it would....

Edit: And also there a multi-verse theories that state that everything that could possibly happen is happening right now somewhere in any number of infinite parallel universes.

There is something always happening in a finite universe I don't see why something wouldn't happen in a infinite universe. Do you mean "In a universe of infinite space and time, is it possible for anything to happen [at least] once?"

No, Mr. Existence is wondering if something can happen only once in an infinite space/time universe. The question bases itself on the idea that given enough time, anything will happen. And therefore, with infinite time, anything should eventually happen an infinite amount of times, not just once. It's pretty much there in the first post.

I'm not giving my opinion on this by the way, just trying to clarify the conundrum.

No. You'd have to base that expectancy solely on the human race. In an infinite universe, again, there are infinite possibilities. Tic tac toe has a finite amount of possibilities, but it's already been played. Something has changed.

That's the universe; try to find a way to explain yourself out of it, and there's something statistical to change it.

If in this hypothetical universe there were Laws of Physics that govern it, there would not be an infinite amount possiblities.

As I wrote, I wasn't explaining my position, just clarifying the OPs. I have yet to share my own thoughts on this. ;)

In an infinite universe they would had be already been shared once, and then repeatedly for all eternity - judging by what you said so far, right?

Many would probably argue that, in a universe of infinite space, time and perhaps one should add infinite matter so that there's a lot going on in that universe, there would have been or will be an infinite amount of Tores who share their thoughts on this topic on a website called musicbanter. I guess given infinity and all, one could argue that not only would there exist an infinite amount of Tores doing this seperated in time, but there would be an infinite amount of Tores doing it at the same time.

But I agree with you Neapolitan that at the core, physical laws dictate the nature of possibilities and ThePhanastasio might agree with me when I think that I am only doing this now. I won't exist millions of years in the future.

I think an infinite universe could be compared to an infinite sequence of numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc. The number 1 will reappear an infinite amount of times backwards and forwards in the sequence (f.ex in the numbers -124, 315 or 1111), but the exact value of 1 will only appear once. So if you're wondering if 1 will reappear, it will, but it won't be the same 1. ;)

hi to all ...:) can any one help me how to build genre classification for music recommendation system ..

Boy are you posting in the wrong place.

Anyways, genre classifications have already been done. Just have a look at discogs f.ex : Style Guide-Related Styles Lists - The Unofficial Discogs Wiki

There would be if there was an infinite amount of space and time.

Theoretically, all you would need is one hydrogen atom. There are an infinite number of spaces for it to occupy (infinite space) and an infinite number of positions for it to take (infinite time).

So infinite possibilities doesn't necessarily require breaking laws of physics.

Is the universe infinite? I would say no. If it was, I would think there would be infinite possibilities here on earth.

Why would you think that?

I don't think the Universe is infinite, but it's constantly expanding. Expanding into what, well that's one of the great mysteries!

The world will not end. I heard similair BS back in 2000 and we are still continuing to live. It is so stupid. I am tired of these BS lies that the world is going to end. I think we have become insane.

If the universe were I infinitely old we couldn't have ever reached this point because it would have taken forever.

Wow we actually agree on something. :)

There is different ways to look at infinity. Take the "line" and a "ray" for instance. A ray proceeds towards infinity in only one direction. A line proceeds towards infinity in two directions.

This universe time flow foward and is like a "ray" (-------->)
where the moment of singularity would be the point in the beginning of the ray representing time.

-------->
Singularity - Big Bang - hyper inflation - annihilation of anti matter - formation of the fundamental force - etc etc - stellar cloud - formation of the solar system - formation of Earth in deep time -- now ---> the future (the Big Rip, The Big Crunch, or Steady State)

Now if time was a "line" and proceeded infinitely in to two directions, where would any of that (the history of the universe) fall on the time line? For that infinite universe to exist it would need everything to exist at one, the Fundamental Forces couldn 't evolve. In such a universe the Big Bang couldn't happen and the Universe wouldn't evolve, it would always have to be in a steady state.

When you say "1 will reappear" what do you mean?
When you are talking about "one" like you said it could the value of one or the symbol of one (1). The value of 1 is unique, while the symbol of one hypothetically can appear an infinite amout of time it the set of Natural Numbers were writen out on I guess infinitely long piece of paper.

Are you talking about infinite space, or infinite dimensions? Hypothetically space is infinite, think of it as three infinte lines pointing the three different dimensions (X,Y,Z). The matter which fill the space in the universe and the size of the universe is unknown. Scientists don't know how large the universe is beyond the visible edge of universe.

I agree that an infinite line could have a starting point, but I don't know how a universe with infinite time and space could. It couldn't be born with a big bang because the singularity I believe is finite and after the bang, space expands from the bang origin. That means a big bang implies a universe finite in space. I'm not an astrophysicist, but that's how I think at least.

But you touch upon an interesting point which I thought of when I first saw this thread. What if the natural occurrence of events is so that you have a universe of matter, then all that matter clumps into black holes which no longer supports life. At this point in time, the possibilities of life are non-existent in the infinite universe. Let's say that because even black holes lose a microscopic amount of radiation, after countless aeons, they eventually shrink into nothing and all the matter in the infinite universe is a haze so thin that gravity can't put it together to form proper matter any more. If this "haze" universe was inevitable and there was absolutely no way for a universe to escape this condition once it was attained, wouldn't that mean that possibilities were only possible for a finite amount of time while most of eternity is spent as a haze universe?

(In this case, there could still be an infinite amount of Tores given infinite space and matter, but only as long as a Tore is a possibility.)

In relation to the story about the different Tores writing on Musicbanter, when I write that 1 will reappear in the sequence of numbers, that's the same as different Tores who write on Musicbanter appearing at different times in the universes history. There could be many such Tores, but only one of them is me. So I think that makes me unique.

All my points before, and following are assuming one dimension, infinite dimensions, by default would result in infinite possibilities. But the thing to remember is that something capable of infinite possibilities does not necessarily include everything conceivable.

I was stalking about the what the OP outlined at first. A universe with infinite space and time, not necessarily what we have in our universe. If we take the proposed universe, then all it would take is one (non-decaying) particle to produce an infinite number of possibilities given infinite time and infinite space. Even thoughthere is only one particle, one dimension and all it's doing is changing it's location (if a location can even be assumed in infinite space with one particle...lets just say two so we can have infinite relative positions).

In order for this particle to produce infinite possibilities it cannot be constrained be time, or space (or you can replace time with speed effectively the same thing), at least two of these variables must be infinite for it to theoretically achieve the infinite possibilities.

In our universe, space can be seen to be expanding at an increasing rate, that doesn't mean it is infinite at THIS point in time if you could theoretically freeze time. So for this point in time there are not an infinite positions the particle could take, therefore all other particles are also limited, and an infinite number of possibilities are not possible.

But the entire theory assumes on the concept that particles/energy occupy discreet points and are not infinitely variable. Otherwise there are infinite possibilities of the position of the particle within 1mm, infinite space isn't needed in given that assumption.

But that is only bulletproof if we are still completely separating space and time. Because theoretically (and in actuality) our time is just another dimension of space. One never exists without the other, since they are one of the same (space-time).

You should really read up on the basics. Start with grade school science and progress to some basic physics. Nothing you've said here or in your previous posts is correct and furthermore has nothing to do with the question the thread poster started with.

Practing being a douche that interrupts a conversation and offers nothing to the conversation. How did I do?

But seriously bud, it doesn't seem like you have a clue what you're talking about.

Trolling......failed!

What would you like to do?
1. Try again.
2. Stop.

I can't tell if you are talking to me, or pointing out how you respond to and handle topics being posted here on MB.

In case your attention deficit is really that bad, this is not my thread, so you have not said anything that opposes my thoughts at all.

And you're talking about a particle moving around in infinite time/space. How is that going to oppose anyone's thoughts? I stick to what I said earlier....you seem lost. Read up on the basics.

My bag of troll food is running out fast, so say what you need to say face.

Here let me try to directly respond to what the thread starter asked...

If you have a particle that exists in an infinite number of universes and exists at every point in time then said particle could move about space/time infinitely. But if entropy and decay have a direct effect on that particle then it would be constrained by the space time continuum of only the one universe that it exists in and disregarding the infinite multi-verse. But if optimus prime and santa claus bring robocop to old detroit then nothing I'm saying has anything to do with the question Bane asked.

There how was that?

In case you can't remember the original question it looks like this....

He also specifically asks if any philosophers have views on this kind of concept, and you're talking about a particle? That can move around if it wants to? Bravo my friend!

You win.

Because I have lost so badly, I will no longer respond to your posts in order to hide my shame.

A friend of mine proposed this to me recently. I find it hard to conceptualize but theoretically, if there is an infinite amount of time and space, then yes, literally anything imaginable is possible. Now if you believe that our entire universe is a product of it being observed in the first place, by our conscious minds, then anything is possible. If something has to be looked at to actually exist. This leads me to the question, what is reality? Is it the individuals need to give the chaotic life they find themselves in some kind of consistency and order, a set security. What if nothing is real, and everything visualized in your head, including the words you are reading right now, are a product of your mind trying to make sense of what is really there, what if everything that you see right now isn't what is actually looks lie, but a human interpretation, or even just an interpretation made by pure conscious thought, human or not.

This is an old idea and one I think just about everyone somewhat reflected stumble upon at some point in life, typically in teenage years when you start reflect on reality a bit more. This philosophy is often found in the basic foundations of fantasy fiction like the role-playing game Mage: The Ascension, Neil Gaiman's Sandman or Terry Pratchett's Discworld (fiction many teenagers read).

One could argue that if the world really was like that, then all our assumptions should consistently be proven true, as long as it is believed by the majority of people. Yet we've often found ourselves to be wrong. F.ex when Copernicus relaunched the heliocentric world view, most people in the world believed in geocentrism. Christians in Europe believed in geocentrism and I believe the same went for f.ex most of China so I'm guessing the vast majority of people believed in geocentrism. Still, all evidence explored by Copernicus and others pointed towards a heliocentric world. If the world is created only in your head, how can you imagine a scientist working with ideas contradicting your own that eventually spread to become popular in your fantasy? And if the world is made up by a sort of collective fantasy of what people believe, why would the minority ever be right about anything? And rules seem to apply to the universe that we still don't understand. How can such rules exist if we can't even fathom them? Wouldn't this idea create a universe we can fully understand?

But of course, it's ultimately impossible to say whether or not it is like that, just like it's impossible to tell whether or not the world you live in is entirely a product of your imagination. After all, changing what you believe in the present would then alter what had happened in the past so one could argue that there was no Copernicus until people believed there was a Copernicus. Of course you'd still have the problem of explaining where the initial seed for the idea about Copernicus would come from in such a universe if it's not found in history, but I'm sure you can come up with some explanation for that as well if you try hard enough.

My personal feelings is that it's standard, cheap, philosophical BS of course :p:

By the way, a comment on your friends idea of infinity; an infinite universe in time, space and matter doesn't necessarily mean anything imaginable can happen. It means everything which has a probability of happening should happen. In order for everything imaginable to have a probability, you would have to have physical laws that at some point allow everything imaginable to be a probability, but you probably don't (right?). At least I don't believe that so f.ex I doubt there would ever exist a marshmallow the size of a thousand galaxies because the probability of that event taking place is 0 as far as I'm concerned.

But I heard there was an exo-planet that had the density of a marshmallow. So it's still almost possible, but probably not probable.

http://astrobob.areavoices.com/files...3-1024x690.jpg

^Haha, lovely :p:

Unfortunately, a marshmallow the size of planets wouldn't be a normal, fluffy marshmallow right through as gravity would highly condense its core.

Other things I can imagine could be a knitting club where intelligent black holes get together to knit socks and talk about the books written by the Bronte sisters. Or a planet where natural history has made it so that every joke from Gary Larson's The Far Side Comic is accurately reproduced.

edit :

To the question posed in the title : In a universe of infinite space and time [and I would add matter], is it possible for something to happen once?

The simple answer is : Yes, if the probability that the event happens more than once is zero.

Anything isn't possible given an infinite amount of space and time if there are constants/laws governing it within it. The four fundamental ones being gravity, electromagnetic, strong and weak forces, whose laws do not change given infinite time or space.

You can have an infinite amount of possibilities without including everything conceivable being possible. An infinite amount of time and space does not mean any thing you can imagine, such as a person being smaller than a single atom or that light stops reflecting, will happen.

I agree. For example, if all the universe contained was a bomb, and it detonated then no matter how much time and space you give it, those particles will never meet again, let alone undo irreversible reactions into a re-formed bomb.

Yup, I agree.


:beer:

The question is could something happen just once. Of course those things will never happen, but if they could occur once, why not twice?

To respond to your bomb argument, I would argue that (besides it being completely preposterous, and it could never happen even once) quantum physics is very different than our physics, and when something seemingly is empty, particles have been known to appear mysteriously. I'm not saying they pop out of nowhere, but they do seem to be formed in a matter by which we don't completely understand.

My answer to the question: No. If something happens once in an infinite universe, it will happen again. If you're sitting at the casino long enough, you're going to get a jackpot at some point.

Well, let's say you fall into an active volcano and your body is reduced to ashes and your life is snuffed out. How many times can this happen to you?

Twice. Just in case you wake up and do it in real life.

My example is a matter of perspective and it's a bit on the side from what Face was talking about (but still relevant, I think), while I also agree with Face's position which is more on the lines of this .. let's say that in the infinite space/time universe, at the start of it, all matter is in one place, but then it explodes and all matter travels outwards from the blast and drifts further and further away from the other matter in the universe. The physical laws happen to be so that this outward movement away from the blast origin will never stop and so even over infinite time, matter will only travel outwards.

Clearly in this instance, the initial blast was a one time event because the physical laws of the universe do not allow for there to be any probability of the event ever happening again.

The possibility of a jackpot ALWAYS exists by definition in a casino.

But lets say there is only one prize to win. You will win it, but after that there's nothing left to win, no matter how many times, you roll the dice, or get t a result that would've won you the jackpot, it's gone.

Replace the dumb bomb idea with one super-giant star in the entire universe. It goes supernova and collapses into a black hole. This is a one off event and will only occur once, infinite time and space won't change that.

HOWEVER, if you want to assume that more matter will spawn into existence, then obviously it could happen again, anything could, but then only one supernova will occur for each subsequent spawning of sufficient matter. But that isn't due to infinite time and space, but infinite time, space, and generation of energy/matter, which violates our current understanding of the universe.

edit: well said tore.

Well eventually a new earth will be created exactly in the same spot, humanity will rise coincidentally exactly like it had before, and I'll go up on that volcano and do it again. :3

Well, I would say that second guy wouldn't be you. It would be a guy that looks like you perhaps!

Well I guess that is the problem, I think it would be me. He'd be exactly like me, think like me, and have all the same experiences. How would it be different than me? (Besides the fact that he took place years later)

I'm assuming that the jackpot doesn't have 1 prize. I'm not convinced that something could actually only take place and cause itself to never occur again.

Ok, I won't assume that matter will spawn, but you can't assume that matter can't be destroyed either. If a star collapsed, who is to say that the exact same matter/energy won't somehow be recreated in the exact same way? It's extremely unlikely, sure, but that's where my jackpot comment comes in.

From a certain point of view, you could argue that every event that takes place is unique for happening in that place at that time and, once done, can never happen again. And from that point of view, you will only exist once.

Recreated? Why would it be recreated in the same way?

If there is a constant, infinite, unchangeable law called gravity that traps that matter in that black hole for eternity and there is no event that can take place in the universe that can ever cause that matter to exist anywhere than in that black hole once that event has taken place, then of course the probability of that matter doing anything but exist as part of a black hole is non-existant. At that point, how would the event repeat itself?