In a universe of infinite space and time, is it possible for something to happen once

Face · 12-07-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggums

I'm assuming that the jackpot doesn't have 1 prize. I'm not convinced that something could actually only take place and cause itself to never occur again.

Ok, I won't assume that matter will spawn, but you can't assume that matter can't be destroyed either.

The matter doesn't have to be destroyed, just dispersed with trajectories that prevent it from ever meeting again (luckily it has infinite space to do this in).

Quote:

If a star collapsed, who is to say that the exact same matter/energy won't somehow be recreated in the exact same way? It's extremely unlikely, sure, but that's where my jackpot comment comes in.

As far as we know, all the energy/matter came into existence with the creation of space-time. If this happened again, would that be a different universe? I suppose how that's how I was viewing it. One universe consisting of a certain amount of matter/energy from it's initiation, and that another one doesn't/couldn't/won't happen(?) inside another.

Another thing to consider is that space time didn't exist until the big bang, so it can't really be said to be a time-probable event. As far as we know, time didn't exist to lead up to it happening, so it might not really be applicable to apply it to happening "again" given enough time...because it includes/created/IS time.

wiggums · 12-07-2012, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

From a certain point of view, you could argue that every event that takes place is unique for happening in that place at that time and, once done, can never happen again. And from that point of view, you will only exist once.

Recreated? Why would it be recreated in the same way?

If there is a constant, infinite, unchangeable law called gravity that traps that matter in that black hole for eternity and there is no event that can take place in the universe that can ever cause that matter to exist anywhere than in that black hole once that event has taken place, then of course the probability of that matter doing anything but exist as part of a black hole is non-existant. At that point, how would the event repeat itself?

You're right about that. I guess I'm assuming that black holes aren't infinite -- or rather, that nothing is infinite, which is odd since I'm assuming the universe is infinite in this question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Face

The matter doesn't have to be destroyed, just dispersed with trajectories that prevent it from ever meeting again (luckily it has infinite space to do this in).

As far as we know, all the energy/matter came into existence with the creation of space-time. If this happened again, would that be a different universe? I suppose how that's how I was viewing it. One universe consisting of a certain amount of matter/energy from it's initiation, and that another one doesn't/couldn't/won't happen(?) inside another.

Another thing to consider is that space time didn't exist until the big bang, so it can't really be said to be a time-probable event. As far as we know, time didn't exist to lead up to it happening, so it might not really be applicable to apply it to happening "again" given enough time...because it includes/created/IS time.

I see what you mean.

On a side note -- this seems pretty interesting to me.

If our universe was really infinite, the night sky would be completely white.

**Janszoon** · 12-07-2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiggums

I see what you mean.

On a side note -- this seems pretty interesting to me.

If our universe was really infinite, the night sky would be completely white.

Only if it was infinitely old as well as infinitely large.

wiggums · 12-07-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Only if it was infinitely old as well as infinitely large.

Yeah, I used infinite there to describe both time and size.

Face · 12-07-2012, 03:24 PM

But..but...

If it was infinitely old, then all the stars would have died, and their light long since passed us an infinitely long time ago....so it could just as equally be all black(?)

Also, the infinite space would also have to consist of infinite matter in infinite directions to form the infinite stars/galaxies for complete coverage.........

wiggums · 12-07-2012, 04:55 PM

Goddamn, There's too many buts!

Bane of your existence · 12-07-2012, 08:40 PM

Fuck, I got busy with finals and never even checked back on this thread. Way too much to respond too, but bless you guys for an interesting discussion. And I've only gotten through the first two pages so far.

A couple things I just wanted to throw out real quick before I get back to studying for my epistemology final:
Tore's explanation of my original intention was spot-on, better than I said it.
I also wasn't talking about this universe necessarily. Infinity is important for the original point, but...
I am not willing to say that our universe is not infinitely old. It is certainly not infinite in size. But I don't think the universe is necessarily like the ray Neo described, because we didn't begin at the singularity. That's just the oldest thing that we can tell happened, because of the expanding galaxy. We almost definitely were a singularity, but I don't think I'm incorrect in saying that we could have been something before that.
I also don't think the universe should be compared to the numbers on the line Tore was talking about. Infinite time isn't the same as infinite numbers. But I'm not firm on this.

The rest that I've read so far I think I can be on board with.

vktr · 12-07-2012, 08:50 PM

Infinity is a notion of mathematics, no such thing has been observed. All we know the Universe is finite and expanding. But everything that has a beginning has an end. So there.

Bane of your existence · 12-07-2012, 09:06 PM

What I'm saying is I don't think that our universe necessarily did have a beginning, though. Infinity couldn't be observed, could it? You seem like you may know what you're talking about so I'll defer to you.

vktr · 12-07-2012, 09:15 PM

There was a beginning, the Big Bang, contemporary science agrees on that. Space and time were created at that very moment, there was no such thing as space and time before (there might have been something else but we have no way of knowing). Outside that I've no idea

12-07-2012, 04:55 PM	#46 (permalink)
wiggums A Sarcastic Joyful Sound Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Montana Posts: 174	Goddamn, There's too many buts! __________________

12-07-2012, 03:24 PM	#45 (permalink)
Face Music Addict Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: UK Posts: 306	But..but... If it was infinitely old, then all the stars would have died, and their light long since passed us an infinitely long time ago....so it could just as equally be all black(?) Also, the infinite space would also have to consist of infinite matter in infinite directions to form the infinite stars/galaxies for complete coverage.........

12-07-2012, 08:40 PM	#47 (permalink)
Bane of your existence Such That Join Date: May 2007 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 1,197	Fuck, I got busy with finals and never even checked back on this thread. Way too much to respond too, but bless you guys for an interesting discussion. And I've only gotten through the first two pages so far. A couple things I just wanted to throw out real quick before I get back to studying for my epistemology final: Tore's explanation of my original intention was spot-on, better than I said it. I also wasn't talking about this universe necessarily. Infinity is important for the original point, but... I am not willing to say that our universe is not infinitely old. It is certainly not infinite in size. But I don't think the universe is necessarily like the ray Neo described, because we didn't begin at the singularity. That's just the oldest thing that we can tell happened, because of the expanding galaxy. We almost definitely were a singularity, but I don't think I'm incorrect in saying that we could have been something before that. I also don't think the universe should be compared to the numbers on the line Tore was talking about. Infinite time isn't the same as infinite numbers. But I'm not firm on this. The rest that I've read so far I think I can be on board with.

12-07-2012, 08:50 PM	#48 (permalink)
vktr Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Burlington, Canada Posts: 173	Infinity is a notion of mathematics, no such thing has been observed. All we know the Universe is finite and expanding. But everything that has a beginning has an end. So there.

12-07-2012, 09:06 PM	#49 (permalink)
Bane of your existence Such That Join Date: May 2007 Location: Austin, Tx Posts: 1,197	What I'm saying is I don't think that our universe necessarily did have a beginning, though. Infinity couldn't be observed, could it? You seem like you may know what you're talking about so I'll defer to you.

12-07-2012, 09:15 PM	#50 (permalink)
vktr Music Addict Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Burlington, Canada Posts: 173	There was a beginning, the Big Bang, contemporary science agrees on that. Space and time were created at that very moment, there was no such thing as space and time before (there might have been something else but we have no way of knowing). Outside that I've no idea