Slavery & the Civil War
 

Slavery was at the heart of the American Civil War, and is the main reason for the South's secession from the North.

^ Do you guys agree or disagree with this statement? I've been re-learning the details of the Civil War recently and found that the statement does seem to ring true, and that Neo-Confederates are arguably saying what the South stood for was OK. I guess this thread could also be about whether flying the Confederate flag is offensive or not.

Moderator cut: image removed
A little visual appeal while we're on the subject :yeah:

With what little knowledge I have on the topic, I've always been under the impression that the confederate flag is an insult.

I've always assumed that to be true. I've seen long winded explanations like this, that say other wise. It's a toughie.

On a somewhat unrelated note, we actually have a stand at my local fair that sells nothing but stuff with confederate flags on it. Kind of weird, considering we're in PA.

I'm sure hip hop bunny hop could rattle off a bunch of alternate explanations.

States rights, differing economies, South felt it was being disrespected, etc.

All of which were definitely true, but slavery still would be the chief reason for the Civil War, despite what some Southerners still argue today (in order to justify their Confederate flag waving). That's just my opinion though.

There are a few racists kids around here that have formed sort of a clique, and here was this one big ol' redneck that always had a confederate flag handkerchief in his back pocket. Needless to say, black kids would mess with him. I remember walking home one day when these two dudes saw him, and asked me "Are you seeing what I'm seeing?" (kid with the hanky). My response was "Why even bother? You're just going to further exacerbate things and it won't help trying to debate with someone like that.". They didn't even bother listening to what I said.

Well anyway, that's what'll happen if you show "southern pride" around here.

I'm pretty sure hip hop bunny will come in with some interesting things to say.

It's an insult, not to mention a symbol of treason.

There is definitely a good argument that this statement is true but it is far too narrow to fully explain the reasons that the US Civil War was waged.

I think "insult" is not the right word for it. The Confederate flag can and is certainly used as anti-black racist propaganda but, like so many other symbols that have taken on new meanings over time, it was not created to be an insult. At least not any more than the US flag was, or than most national flags were.

That stand may be run by racists but it also may not. you'd need to talk to the people who run it to figure out why they're promoting the flag.


Here's my general take on it and some personal background:
I grew up in northern Virginia and the public schools there were heavily weighted toward the Union over the Confederacy even though they were technically located in the South. I was taught that racist rednecks are the only ones who fly the Confederate flag.

For a time I went to college in Richmond, Virginia which is heavily Southern. Richmond is really the largest, northern-most, truly Southern city. It was the capital of the Confederacy and there are many people and institutions there who identify with the Confederacy. There is a nationally funded and highly important Museum of the Confederacy there. Certainly that museum has had to deal with the slavery and racism that was inherent in the culture that it preserves. Still, they preserve a culture that a large portion of US citizens were born into and identify with, racist or not. And there are indeed people who relate to the Confederate culture who are not racists. Richmond also has a many more black citizens than where I grew up and it's interesting to note how the city's culture has evolved.

Later in college (not in VA) I majored in US History and I took a class that was devoted to the Civil War. An important book we read is called Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era. It won a Pulitzer Prize, it's over 900 pages long and trust me that it explores much more than slavery.

For a second, imagine yourself as a person who lived in Georgia during this era who did not own any slaves (many people all over the South did not) but who was born into a slave-owning culture and economy. Then the war happens and one day the Union army storms your town, kills your family, and burns your home to the ground. This happened to many people. Those people have descendants who are alive today. To them the Confederate flag may mean more than anti-black rhetoric. I hope you can see why.

Anyway, I'll probably bow out of this thread as it will potentially become heated and I'm not going to argue strongly one way or the other. For people who are genuinely interested in the deep complications that caused the South's secession and the resulting war, I urge you to read Battle Cry of Freedom (or at least some of the many other available resources) before your feelings about the war or the Confederate flag are set in stone.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ook)_cover.jpg

The confederate flag is completely offensive considering what the ideals of the people behind it entailed, however displaying it is a valid expression of free speech. I don't think everyone who displays it is a racist person, but it's certainly a troubling sign of character that one is so devoted to a specific region of the country. It pretty much signals to me that the person will be completely unreasonable about any form of thinking that doesn't come from the American South. It denotes a kind of willful close-mindedness and prejudice towards those who aren't from their region, under the guise of "pride".

There is, of course, nothing wrong with honoring your ancestors who may have died in that awful conflict. Many of those who fought on either side did not reflect the values held by their commanders. A lot of confederates were just good men who died young.

We in the UK, see the Confederate flag as a symbol of someone who enjoys country music, has a long beard, likes Lynyrd Skynyrd, is a God fearing redneck, has a fetish for dressing up in white and burning crosses, and likes shagging family members when the farm stock is indisposed.

Now I know some of the above might not be strictly true.....but just saying what we think here in Blighty.

I really hate those kinds of stereotypes that seem to be so okay with people.
Politically the American South may be backwards and the people you describe above may exist somewhere, but the South can be a very welcoming and hospitable place (for all races), with some of the most fascinating culture and delicious ethnic cuisine anywhere in the world. Nobody seems to defend the South except those people who make a bad name for it.

Does anyone know the official origins of the confederate flag? I don't want to completely throw something out the window till I know exactly how and what came about. Not going to go on a different tangent here, but due to a certain former world power a lot of symbols have had their meanings misconstrued. Again, the people I know (personally) who wave around confederate flags are "white power" types.

Unlike the Confederate flag, this (the KKK insignia) is most definitely an insult that denotes bigotry. The two symbols aren't necessarily related.

http://blog.n-two.jp/images/KKK-symbol.gif

I don't know there pretty close to one in the same to me, considering what the Confederates stood for and PRIMARILY fought for (slavery).


Also fun fact is that the British were actually in favor of the Confederates winning the Civil War.

Haha, in fact most of the Americans that I've met over the years have come from all over the USA, but the southerners that I've met tended to be the warmest and friendliest of them all.

I actually saw a documentary several years ago about the KKK and it stated that membership was actually at its highest in some of the northern states which surprised me, Michigan or a similiar state seems to ring a bell as actually having a high membership in the USA but I could be mistaken on which state it was.

Since there's no way for this issue to be fully explored here, I hope people will at least say a little bit about why they feel the way they do. That is, what makes you relate the entire Confederacy to the KKK so much?

Guess which flag was considered treason by the British :)

I always thought the war was about self determination of the slave states and slavery just happened to be one of the issues involved. I know a number of slave states actually stayed with the Union and other like Kentucky and Kansas etc were undecided.

Well, I guess the best I can provide is a comparison. Would you find it okay if an adult today was hanging this flag over his house:

http://img-cache.cdn.gaiaonline.com/...y_swastika.svg

because his grandfather fought bravely in WWII and he wanted to honor his legacy? I think the American Civil War is very unique in that the Confederacy (the losing side) is celebrated almost as much as the Union. Just take a trip down south and you'll see all the monuments dedicated to the bravery of the South. Not something you'd find in Germany I'd imagine.

Out of interest, what do people think of John Brown, a domestic terrorist or a hero?

There's only one slave state that I'm aware of that stayed with Union, and the only reason it did so was because the federal government clamped down on it before it could secede.

Maryland or Delaware I'd guess!!!

Nah there were a couple, Kentucky, Delaware, and I think two more at least.

I thought it was Kentucky, Tennessee, Maryland, Delaware and Kansas but when war broke out sides had to be chosen, whilst others decided to remain neutral initially.........Now if I had my civil war history book close at hand I'd find it in a jiffy.

I think it was Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri, all who got pressured by Washington to stay in the Union.

I think that's an unfair comparison because you're comparing two entirely different political landscapes. To answer your question, I feel that in a perfect world, a non-bigoted German would be allowed to fly that flag in honor of his grandfather, and not be a social outcast.

Hero. I would have been an abolitionist personally.

I believe Delaware was a slave state in name only and Kentucky was technically part of the confederacy, though it remained sort of neutral during the war. Maryland is the state I was referring to in my previous post. And Missouri was basically engaged in its own internal civil war at the time so it wasn't exactly what you'd call a willing part of the union.

Well you yourself say 'in a perfect world' which I think means that bias aside, it's not a terrible comparison. Keep in mind that not only did the Confederacy represent the belief that one race was superior to the other it also represents treason to our country. I guess you look at it as detaching the beliefs that inspired those actions from the picture, leaving just the heroic actions of the Confederacy?

If the laws had been upheld properly, Robert E. Lee and all the other generals of the CSA would have been executed for their crimes.



And I would agree with you.

Germany in both WWI and WWII were the aggressors and also on both occasions had the strongest military and economy for fighting a war and also initiated both conflicts. Whereas the Confederacy, was not the aggressor but more the victim and started as the firm underdog, for that reason it can treat its soldiers as heroes.

Maryland was pretty much split in two, there were people who fought for the confederacy and the union in my state. I was kind of disappointed after finding out as a kid that "all us Marylanders didn't fight for the union". Doesn't matter much to me now, knowing my ancestors hadn't even gotten out of Germany at the time. ;)

Not name only, it wasn't very prevalent, but it was still legal. I think that qualifies it as a slave state. Kentucky was part of the border states, but sided with the Union after the Confederate army moved into their state.

I don't believe in capital punishment, I don't think the idea that the Confederacy was treasonous to the US matters much, and I know that US citizens in the free states were generally as racist as those in the slave states.

The victim of what exactly? Oh poor South they don't get to keep their slave labor anymore, LOL. I think you need another history lesson, chief.

They were the underdog, but plenty of wars have been won by the sides with the smaller army.

I've read differently but you may be right. The point, though, is that slavery was the major issue that caused the war. The fracture may not have been a perfectly clean line, but it's no coincidence that happened where it happened.

I also think that it should be noted that Abraham Lincoln made it clear he wasn't out to abolish slavery when he was first elected, lending even more credence to the fact that the South was betraying our Union of States. It was only around 1863 I believe that he started to adopt the idea of abolishing it completely.

This a very shady subject to this day, but I guess I will chime in. I am Southern for sure, from Alabama to be exact, and I definitely have a strong attachment to my home. The Civil War was a terrible event, but it happened. My opinion is this, I would have personally fought for the Confederates, but NOT because I support slavery or succession, but because the South is my home and I refuse to burn the houses of my neighbors and my own. Many people who fought for the CSA wanted to protect their homes, so the idea that ALL people who fought for the CSA believed in slavery is incorrect. The figures actually show that most Southerners were extremely poor and didn't own slaves, it was mostly the upper class plantation owners who did. But, I believe the outcome of the war was needed, the Union did need to win to bring the country back together, and to help answer the slavery issue that had been avoided for so many years.

The victim as in they were the defenders of their territory. I don't mean victim as in their cause was just or anything.

Ah ok I see. That's not entirely the case though, while what you say is true, the only reason it was that way was becasue they were entirely unsuccessful in their attempts to take the North's territory. See Gettysburg, for example.

I disagree. For the Union to win, what they had to do was invade southern territory and give the rebels a beating they couldn't recover from, they did this eventually but it took them 4 years to achieve it. For the Rebels to win, all they had to do was defend their territory and wear the Union down in their own territory, for this reason the majority of the battles were fought in Virginia and Tennessee, and the Mississippi river was seen as the key to war as well (rebel territory)

The Confederacy actually came so close to achieving victory and their aims on several occasions, they had consistently whipped the Union armies especially in the Eastern Theater (Virginia etc) on several occasions, but made the mistake of then invading northern territory (Pennsylvania) the Confederacy were great at fighting a defensive campaign, but not so good at fighting an offensive one which proved their undoing.

The million dollar question is, did the Union win the war or the Confederacy lose it?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...veFree1861.gif

Kansas was a free state; hence the term "border wars" for the games between Missouri University & Kansas University, as well as the KU mascot the "Jayhawk"...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Divisions.png

All the light blue were states that had slavery but ended up going with the Union for one reason or another. This is also how we got West Virginia....

Anyways, my $0.02:

1) Slavery was the issue at hand in a round about way. The way I'd put it is when you've a housemate who never does the dishes, and then one day you come home and the entire place smells like catbox, and you flip your ****, and you include something along the lines of "....AND YOU NEVER DO THE GODDAMNED DISHES!"

2) LINK <---Marx actually has some interesting things to say on the Civil War, and - of course - this relates to Economics.

3) Wars should be fought only for concrete material concerns, and I'm very skeptical of the notion any war carried out for "humanitarian reasons" it claimed.

4) I don't understand why any one who'd like Whites to retain majority status in the USA would support the demographic catastrophe that was slavery.

You hit the nail right on the head. This is quoted for truth.

When you consider the vast disparity between the perentage of slave-owning families in the south (royghly 5-10) and the percentage of non-slave owning, poor, and unskilled white laborers who fought in the Civil War it becomes quite evident that slavery was not that large of a factor in the beginnings of the war. I was always taught and tested on how the war specifically wasn't only about slavery but economic factors, cultural differences and a series of acts throughout the Midwest (Bleeding Kansas, Missouri Compromise, etc.) exacerbated the already tenuous relationship between the north and south.

To touch on a few of the topics in the thread...

The KKK was begun in Indiana. I have a coworker who lives very near the founding area, and he says there's all sorts of weird old KKK relics all over the place there.

In the urban areas of Louisville, my home, pretty much anybody with a Confederate flag pasted on their house or flying is a racist, and is letting everyone know it. Almost guaranteed. This is by far NOT how many, many southerners view it... I know, I've asked. Many southerners just view it as a symbol of independence. I disagree with using it in such a way because of its origins and how it makes African Americans (rightly) feel, but I digress. And yes, many of these same Confederate flag wavers DO love Lynyrnd Skynyrd.

I think more important than any of this is the fact that, thank God, the slaves were freed. That battle was won.

Unfortunately, there is literally more slaves today in the world than all of history. The sale of women is the third largest "business" in the world. So many think that after the Emancipation Proclamation there were no more slaves, ever, which is simply not true. Some of them are still here in the US.

If it isn't obvious already, this topic is VERY important to me. I cannot express in the English language how much I HATE slavery. The very idea of one man controlling another is simply sickening. I could literally go on for hours on this.

Instead, here's a link. This isn't who I primarily look at, but they have a ton of helpful info and slavery news. Take a look, please.

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