Prop 8 Ruled Unconstitutional

Meph1986 · 02-29-2012, 07:05 AM

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Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle

It makes no difference. Most Americans still favor traditional marriage.

Yes it does.

Unknown Soldier · 02-29-2012, 08:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Mr November

I'm not really sure what a moral reason is... Morals are arbitrary unless they come from a concept that helps the society. The real question is, what (if anything# about homosexuality shouldn't be embraced by a fair and equal society? Does homosexuality infringe on the fair rights of non-homosexuals?

And I kind of see what hip-hop-bunny is saying about civil rights. Regardless of whether it is considered one by law #no idea if it is or not), why should it be considered a civil right? To me marriage is a religious institution - and not one that I particularly value anyway.

But if the government is giving out benefits based on marriage, then un-married couples should at least be able to access those exact same benefits and be accounted for in the same matter in all respects.

On the other hand, maybe legally recognizing marriage is an infringement on the civil rights of single people. I guess I don't really fully understand the issues but I think it has something to do with how you file tax returns and bla bla bla.

But gay marriage does become a civil right if gay marriage is not recognized by government, denying it is a breach of civil rights. Its hardly a morality issue either, as it doesn't infringe on the lives of non-gays.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Pepe Kalle

You should come to Minnesota. It is a good decent state. I love Minnesota. Everyone is here.

Sounds great and it even has homophobes that live in shacks.

**Janszoon** · 02-29-2012, 09:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Sounds great and it even has homophobes that live in shacks.

And Neil Gaiman!

hip hop bunny hop · 02-29-2012, 09:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

But gay marriage does become a civil right if gay marriage is not recognized by government, denying it is a breach of civil rights. Its hardly a morality issue either, as it doesn't infringe on the lives of non-gays.

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Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

I talked about this back here...

\

Slightly unrelated, but here's an article about the unintended consequences of anti-discrimination legislation....

The Batlord · 02-29-2012, 10:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Mr November

Morals are arbitrary unless they come from a concept that helps the society.

off topic/

I'm assuming you mean subjective, and on that assumption I would say that ALL morals are subjective, whether or not they benefit society, since the idea that humans should work to benefit or desire to be a part of society is itself subjective.

Salami · 02-29-2012, 11:27 AM

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Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

Perhaps first you should go through the effort of explaining why this is a civil rights issue.

I have already in this thread talked very extensively why I believe this is the case, but I'll give you a link to my journal article i which I explain some of my thoughts as to why objections to it from a moral perspective (particularly religious) are in my opinion false here.

I'd answer your question specifically, but right I am being forced by a huge man with a whip to go and perform some strange homoerotic sex scene set in a rugby changing room where they make us under 17 year olds fight each other naked. It's technically child abuse towards me, but apparently it's legal in the states which is where they will sell the footage.

I'll be back - but before then please tell me why you think gay rights is SEPARATE from CIVIL rights. Please tell me where the distinction is.
I'll add right now that being gay is not something one can have any control over, no more than the colour of your skin, so denying them marriage makes as much sense from a civil rights perspective as denying black people marriage or asian people marriage.

Unknown Soldier · 02-29-2012, 12:56 PM

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Originally Posted by hip hop bunny hop

\

Slightly unrelated, but here's an article about the unintended consequences of anti-discrimination legislation....

I'm guessing this link is in response to the morality issue of gay marriage and how it can infringe on others. Well the Catholic Church is a very outdated institution and very out of touch with the modern world on various issues, so much so that in many very strict catholic societies such as Latin America and in Spain, Portugal and Italy etc it has lost a lot of followers over the last couple of decades, either through people losing interest or following other religions. If we look at morailty and how it has infringed on others, the Catholic Church must rank amongst the worst violators of this in the history of man. The link you've provided is really just a perfect example of how the Catholic Church needs to update its doctrine.

For the record, I'm quite religious and also a Catholic and I'm also one of those people that stopped following the Catholic Church years ago, as I just didn't believe in so many of their doctrines anymore. I now view religion as a contract between God and myself and really don't feel the need to use a third party such as a church to practice it.

So if you need to impress me with examples of how gay marriage infringes on others, you need to do better than The Tablet.

hip hop bunny hop · 02-29-2012, 02:37 PM

Eh, I'll be back with more soon, but I wanted to add this, to clear up a common misconception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salami

I'll add right now that being gay is not something one can have any control over, no more than the colour of your skin, so denying them marriage makes as much sense from a civil rights perspective as denying black people marriage or asian people marriage.

Not quite:

Quote:

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

on page 4

The underline is mine.

Salami · 02-29-2012, 02:49 PM

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most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

That really is what I was trying to say: "experiencing little or no sense of choice" really to me reinforces the point that you have no control on whether you end up gay or not.
Some people say that it is also affected by a lack of a strong male influence in the household you were brought up in, but that's not really the full picture.A lot of gay people certainly didn't want to be gay, for example in the times when it was publically considered repulsive, why make a stand for a life choice you made a decision over?
Why would you risk persecution for something you decided on a whim?

Mr November · 02-29-2012, 03:07 PM

Why is marriage a civil right? What does this mean?!?

What is marriage, and why should government have anything to do with it?

And morals aren't always subjective, they can be very logical. Humans are animals that are naturally social - morals are just social behaviours.

02-29-2012, 03:07 PM	#200 (permalink)
Mr November Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Halifax, Canada Posts: 429	Why is marriage a civil right? What does this mean?!? What is marriage, and why should government have anything to do with it? And morals aren't always subjective, they can be very logical. Humans are animals that are naturally social - morals are just social behaviours.