American Presidency Campaign

~~Farfisa~~ · 01-16-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I think americans need to realize that stuff like a public health care system is not a quick fix. It would take many years to get that right and I believe that sort of stuff is what the US needs. It seems that by the political standards of many U.S. citizens, european countries that are generally better off as basically communist. What we think of as a sort of middle road seems to be regarded as a political extreme in the US.

Less power to the government will mean a government even less able to do stuff like offer a proper public education or health care to those who can't afford it. Because of such problems, people again have less faith in the governments ability to do anything. It's a negative circle which should be reversed, a process which by American democracy would likely take a long time to do.

Your society of winners and losers is not freedom. Someone who's life starts out in a drug and crime ridden ghetto without proper health care does not have the same chances to succeed in life that the well-off do who can send their kids to private schools. When the cream of society is only available to a minority, that means you have an oppressive class system.

If you want freedom, people should have equal opportunities of f.ex becoming a doctor or a biologist and that means stuff like proper education and health care should be equally available to all. The further away you get from that, the more crappy society gets.

In the end, people should vote for everyone and not just themselves. After all, if you vote for a better society, you're part of that society. Your kids likely will be too.

As much as I want free healthcare and better education in less fortunate areas, our politicians and the majority of America are too stubborn to give in to any sort of major change.

I honestly don't even feel like voting in the coming election, maybe that's because I'm an idiot when it comes to politics.

**Janszoon** · 01-16-2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

I think americans need to realize that stuff like a public health care system is not a quick fix. It would take many years to get that right and I believe that sort of stuff is what the US needs. It seems that by the political standards of many U.S. citizens, european countries that are generally better off as basically communist. What we think of as a sort of middle road seems to be regarded as a political extreme in the US.

Less power to the government will mean a government even less able to do stuff like offer a proper public education or health care to those who can't afford it. Because of such problems, people again have less faith in the governments ability to do anything. It's a negative circle which should be reversed, a process which by American democracy would likely take a long time to do.

Your society of winners and losers is not freedom. Someone who's life starts out in a drug and crime ridden ghetto without proper health care does not have the same chances to succeed in life that the well-off do who can send their kids to private schools. When the cream of society is only available to a minority, that means you have an oppressive class system.

If you want freedom, people should have equal opportunities of f.ex becoming a doctor or a biologist and that means stuff like proper education and health care should be equally available to all. The further away you get from that, the more crappy society gets.

In the end, people should vote for everyone and not just themselves. After all, if you vote for a better society, you're part of that society. Your kids likely will be too.

I agree with everything you say here, but I do always wonder how feasible it actually is to take a European-style approach to things in a country the size of the US. With the exception of Japan, it seems like all of the ten largest countries on the planet struggle with quality of life issues for huge segments of their population. I don't know what the solutions are. I wish I knew. I do have a nagging suspicion, though, that the European model might simply not work above a certain size population.

Guybrush · 01-16-2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farfisa

As much as I want free healthcare and better education in less fortunate areas, our politicians and the majority of America are too stubborn to give in to any sort of major change.

I honestly don't even feel like voting in the coming election, maybe that's because I'm an idiot when it comes to politics.

I'm sure this is only part of it and not the whole picture, but it seems to me the general US populace for a long time have had an unhealthy negative association with the word socialism. I guess it's the lingering effects of the cold war when US propaganda made an enemy out of communism. Of course communism isn't good, but neither is the opposite extreme.

With the way elections are (awfully competitive and infused with capitalism), US politicians need ideas they can "sell" to the people and I guess those socialist political ideas generally haven't been sellable. Obama won the election last time, but I'm not sure how much democratic/political help and support he's had when it comes to actually putting those ideas in motion.

Guybrush · 01-16-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I agree with everything you say here, but I do always wonder how feasible it actually is to take a European-style approach to things in a country the size of the US. With the exception of Japan, it seems like all of the ten largest countries on the planet struggle with quality of life issues for huge segments of their population. I don't know what the solutions are. I wish I knew. I do have a nagging suspicion, though, that the European model might simply not work above a certain size population.

To be honest, it's hard to tell, but I don't see why it shouldn't work. As far as I know looking at the top 10, noone's tried and failed either.

Of course the change would have to be gradual and change itself could put a strain on things. If everyone got free health care at the same time, that would cost the goverment a lot of money because a lot of people would go and get treatment for previously untreated medical problems which means a lot of pressure on the new healthcare system over a short amount of time. When the system has been in place for a while, that's no longer a problem. I guess there's always bumps in the road like that and I just think people should be willing to stick with it past the bumps and aim for good long-term strategies.

The Monkey · 01-16-2012, 09:34 AM

If Obama can't win against these degenerate fucking morons in the GOP, whose incompetence is only matched by their wickedness, he doesn't deserve to be president. Not that Obama has done a good job (frankly I think he's a fucking idiot), but Jesus H. Christ, people has to see that he is the lesser of the two evils.

**Janszoon** · 01-16-2012, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

To be honest, it's hard to tell, but I don't see why it shouldn't work. As far as I know looking at the top 10, noone's tried and failed either.

It could be. Those ten countries do certainly represent a variety of different ways of doing things, though, with a fairly consistent lack of success. When there are so many people it seems like task of the government serving them all adequately becomes exponentially more difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Of course the change would have to be gradual and change itself could put a strain on things. If everyone got free health care at the same time, that would cost the goverment a lot of money because a lot of people would go and get treatment for previously untreated medical problems which means a lot of pressure on the new healthcare system over a short amount of time. When the system has been in place for a while, that's no longer a problem. I guess there's always bumps in the road like that and I just think people should be willing to stick with it past the bumps and aim for good long-term strategies.

I support universal health care and most people I know do as well. But obviously not everyone agrees. One of this biggest issues in this country is getting people to work together on things, something which I think is kind of unavoidable when you have a large, diverse population that is also very spread out geographically.

~~Rubato~~ · 01-16-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I agree with everything you say here, but I do always wonder how feasible it actually is to take a European-style approach to things in a country the size of the US. With the exception of Japan, it seems like all of the ten largest countries on the planet struggle with quality of life issues for huge segments of their population. I don't know what the solutions are. I wish I knew. I do have a nagging suspicion, though, that the European model might simply not work above a certain size population.

America has a lot of wealth, unfortunately the vast majority of it is being hoarded by the minority, if they actually began to pull their own weight there would be more than enough there to support a European model. The problem is that there is a general fear that placing any burden on the wealthy will just see them looking elsewhere, Ireland has the same problem with its low corporate tax rate, that's why the EU is seeking a common consolidated corporate tax base to end the competition between member states that only end up placing more burden on the working class.

Guybrush · 01-16-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I support universal health care and most people I know do as well. But obviously not everyone agrees. One of this biggest issues in this country is getting people to work together on things, something which I think is kind of unavoidable when you have a large, diverse population that is also very spread out geographically.

Yeah, it's a good point. There are many ways to be different in the US, geographically, culturally, how much money you have and more.

It doesn't make me change my mind, but I understand what you mean.

Burning Down · 01-16-2012, 02:11 PM

Tore, you're absolutely right on all accounts. Especially concerning the public health care issue. Health care is available for free to everyone in Canada, however it took more than a decade to become fully implemented nation-wide (it started in just one province). But it's still not perfect. Unfortunately people still fall through the cracks, and routine dental care and examinations are not covered by the public system - you need insurance for that, either private or through your employer.

TheBig3 · 01-18-2012, 07:19 PM

Healthcare in America will never be universal. And frankly, I don't think it should be. Never mind the geographic limitations, or the Constitution, Universal Healthcare can't and won't be achieved because you either go broke covering for people who walk out of successful cancer treatments and smoke a pack a day, or get a stint and swing through the drive-thru on the way home, or you tell those people to go screw, and then its not universal.

I look at expanding healthcare like I look at War. Universal Healthcare is an occupation. What we need is an exit strategy. Medical issues that don't have degenerative qualities can be covered, and i think should be. You fall off a ladder and brake a bone, its an easy fix. Take it in taxes and stop giving people great concerns.

For actual medial issues, I say this, I'm someone who walks everywhere, exercises on a regular basis (when i'm not dying of a cold), try to eat healthy, and don't smoke or drink excessively. I'm working to minimize risks. Why not tell people who refuse to conduct themselves in a healthy, intelligent manner to go **** themselves?

Musicbanter has a way of making me sound like a Republican, so heres one more, why should I support these medical freeloaders? If you have a genetic issue, or are a high risk factor, thats one thing, but when you look at folks like Paula Dean who recently came out and said she had Type 2 diabetes, yet is on television weekly throwing 3 sticks of butter in her recipes.

Before Universal Healthcare can take root in this country, unfortunately the ignorant have to suffer for their ignorance of common knowledge. And that isn't going to happen if we keep propping them up.

Somehow, on a similar note, given Santorum's comments recently on how "poor" people should overcome, I'll be voting for Ron Paul in the Republican Primary this year. Again, still going with Obama in the general, but I'd prefer an honest person who isn't a racist nightmare (insert Liberal one-liners below).

01-16-2012, 09:34 AM	#115 (permalink)
The Monkey Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 803	If Obama can't win against these degenerate fucking morons in the GOP, whose incompetence is only matched by their wickedness, he doesn't deserve to be president. Not that Obama has done a good job (frankly I think he's a fucking idiot), but Jesus H. Christ, people has to see that he is the lesser of the two evils. __________________ Now another stranger seems to want you to ignore his dreams as though they were the burden of some other My Last.fm

01-18-2012, 07:19 PM	#120 (permalink)
TheBig3 killedmyraindog Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 11,172	Healthcare in America will never be universal. And frankly, I don't think it should be. Never mind the geographic limitations, or the Constitution, Universal Healthcare can't and won't be achieved because you either go broke covering for people who walk out of successful cancer treatments and smoke a pack a day, or get a stint and swing through the drive-thru on the way home, or you tell those people to go screw, and then its not universal. I look at expanding healthcare like I look at War. Universal Healthcare is an occupation. What we need is an exit strategy. Medical issues that don't have degenerative qualities can be covered, and i think should be. You fall off a ladder and brake a bone, its an easy fix. Take it in taxes and stop giving people great concerns. For actual medial issues, I say this, I'm someone who walks everywhere, exercises on a regular basis (when i'm not dying of a cold), try to eat healthy, and don't smoke or drink excessively. I'm working to minimize risks. Why not tell people who refuse to conduct themselves in a healthy, intelligent manner to go **** themselves? Musicbanter has a way of making me sound like a Republican, so heres one more, why should I support these medical freeloaders? If you have a genetic issue, or are a high risk factor, thats one thing, but when you look at folks like Paula Dean who recently came out and said she had Type 2 diabetes, yet is on television weekly throwing 3 sticks of butter in her recipes. Before Universal Healthcare can take root in this country, unfortunately the ignorant have to suffer for their ignorance of common knowledge. And that isn't going to happen if we keep propping them up. Somehow, on a similar note, given Santorum's comments recently on how "poor" people should overcome, I'll be voting for Ron Paul in the Republican Primary this year. Again, still going with Obama in the general, but I'd prefer an honest person who isn't a racist nightmare (insert Liberal one-liners below). __________________ I've moved to a new address

01-16-2012, 02:11 PM	#119 (permalink)
Burning Down The Music Guru. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Beyond the Wall Posts: 4,858	Tore, you're absolutely right on all accounts. Especially concerning the public health care issue. Health care is available for free to everyone in Canada, however it took more than a decade to become fully implemented nation-wide (it started in just one province). But it's still not perfect. Unfortunately people still fall through the cracks, and routine dental care and examinations are not covered by the public system - you need insurance for that, either private or through your employer.